Herb, since you are so confident a Republican will win the election, I'll make you a bet.

If a Democrat is the next president, you will not attack abortions here for 1 year.

If a Republican wins, I will support all of your attacks against abortion, especially if anyone attacks you for that.

Come on out from hiding Herbster.

Herb is smart enough not to make a bet he knows he's going to lose.

"Herb, since you are so confident a Republican will win the election..."

Where have I stated that?

I may hope that a pro-life conservative wins, but I admit it is not a sure thing.

Clever attempt at muzzling the left's biggest weakness, the pro-life message, though.

Herb

Clever attempt at muzzling the left's biggest weakness, the pro-life message, though.

Huh? WTF? Where did that come from Herb? Did you pull that out of your ass?

"Clever attempt at muzzling the left's biggest weakness, the pro-life message, though."

Nah, I'm pretty sure it's just an attempt to muzzle YOU, particularly on the you-know-what issue.

I think we all see you as smart enough to have multiple opinions about multiple subjects, and we would like to hear some of them. But it's hard to, given your propensity to sound the anti-abortion horn at the slightest provocation.

It gets very, very tiresome.

Herb, you started the thread saying the Republicans would keep the White House. Are you now backing down from that?

I did not offer this as an attempt to muzzle your abortion support, but to make you put up or shut up about the thread you started.

Herb doesn't know if he's afoot or horseback most of the times I'm sure.

"Herb, you started the thread saying the Republicans would keep the White House."

I quoted someone who said that and I indeed hope it happens. It's not a done deal. Or do you have more faith in Mr. Bush than I?

Herb

"But it's hard to, given your propensity to sound to anti-abortion horn at the slightest provocation."

Understood.

I sincerely liken it to slavery. It is crucially important that our actions match our rheoteric unless our nation wants to cede the high ground. Otherwise, we are worse than animals, as they protect their young. And animals don't prattle on about how wonderful and advanced they are.

"It gets very, very tiresome."

Imagine how the little kids feel.

Herbert M.

There are just as many other important issues on the table too Herb.

Unfortunately once a child is born from an unwanted pregnancy the programs that are supposed to be in place to help the child and mother are not there or are going away fast due to Bush's war.

So you go from an unplanned pregnancy to an unwanted child. Imagine how the child feels now.... abandoned.

Yes, lets kill it so it never feels abandoned...

That's the left's 'final solution' and it's right in line with so-called 'planned parenthood's' Margaret 'no child left unaborted' Sanger.

Most conservatives I know just want to give the little kid a home, Mrs. Herb included.

Herb

"It gets very, very tiresome."

Imagine how the little kids feel.

You've made it very clear how the 'little kids' feel. But if you really want to get the word out, take it out on the road. We're at saturation here.

Accost

Main Entry:
ac·cost
Function:
transitive verb
Etymology:
Middle French accoster, ultimately from Latin ad- + costa rib, side — more at coast
Date:
1597

: to approach and speak to often in a challenging or aggressive way

If you truly cared about reducing abortions, changing the law would not be the goal. Your approach is fatally flawed, so you need to seek alternatives in how to achieve your goal. Those alternatives that you should work towards are shared by myself. It's too bad your narrowminded agenda can't see this.

Herb wants EVERY kid born but doesn't want to fund ANY programs to keep the kid alive after it's born.
Then he wants to go kick the living shit out everyone in the world that doesn't think like he does and kill there women and children. Born and UNborn

Not to be the squeaky wheel, (actually if it's in tune can sound pretty decent) but Herb's one issue only political agenda is sadly so off what the base of today's conservative evangelicals are wanting that his fingers are just barely hanging onto the sill.

It's not an unimportant issue; it's one of many. And because Herb has used it so often it's become a mute issue, which is too bad because I believe it needs to be addressed but with a coming together of both sides to a deeper moral middle ground.

Herb I applaud you and the Mrs. for following your convictions and bringing into your home a child who was orphaned or not wanted. God bless you for that.

But unless men stop putting sperm where it doesn't belong abortions will be with us.

Herb you have my permission to take off your blinders and see a different world. I for one will welcome you with open arms.

I for one will welcome you with open arms.

So would Jesus.

Another perspective:

Just read a report on Religion in America. (Trying to find link...)

In a nutshell, the largest growing group is unaffiliated and or not particularly religious. I'm in that group, and I gotta tell you, the absolute number one reason is people hammering on "nothing else matters" type issues.

(not a slam on you personally Herb --it's just an extremely effective characterization)

The Catholics have been hit hard too. The only reason their numbers are up is the large influx of Latin Americans, who tend to be Catholic.

For evangelicals, their biggest incoming numbers are converts from other faiths, not the unwashed masses.

I find that telling, given this thread. Think about it.

The average person, not consumed by any one issue, will not make the same kinds of value judgments an issue person will. To them, everything matters.

There is no one thing that trumps all the others. That's reality. We have to eat, raise our kids, build our stuff, protect one another, work to learn and grow, and all sorts of other things that really absolutely do matter.

At any given time, most of us exist in this condition, meaning the way to establish credence and with that some progress, is to approach things in a holistic way.

Anything else is just nuts and most people know it.

The kicker is that I've never met anybody that didn't want serious progress on abortion matters. To me, that means we can get them, but for those unwilling to work for it.

Herb, you do more harm than good with your advocacy. That's why I posted the definition I did. Accosting people doesn't get it done. More of a turn off than a turn on.

Why?

Because doing that is associated with raving nut-bags that everybody knows not to take seriously.

You are not a raving nut-bag. We know this. But, you are acting like one and it's not real enough to take seriously.

"The kicker is that I've never met anybody that didn't want serious progress on abortion matters."

Nibbling around the edges rarely makes for substantive change. What if we were talking about the right for minorities and women to vote? Then it would never be enough or fast enough.

And with a candidate like Mrs. Clinton, she wears her 'pro-choice' badge so proudly as to chastise her pro-abortion opponent for not being pro-abortion enough.

Only as the media shield is pierced and people realize the many negative consequences of the abortion industry, will change be made.

Call me a one-note Johnny if you'd like. It's indeed an important issue and if I make some consciences uncomfortable, then perhaps the problem is less with Herb and more with a waking awareness of right, wrong and indeed life itself. Little is more important.

Herb

Call me a one-note Johnny if you'd like.

Sounds good....

What's gonna happen is people are gonna say, "I know there are solid solutions that will do a lot of good, right now, today, and that's progress."

Knowing that, they then are not gonna put everything else at risk on an "all in" bet.

In poker lingo, you don't bet all in on a draw, unless you have the nuts when it hits; otherwise, you could very well hit your draw, and still be beat and be left with nothing.

The all in bet is getting a full scale abortion ban, and with that the declaration that blastocysts are people too.

So let's say it hits. We get all that legislated and you feel better about it then.

Guess what?

There will still be abortions, and still the potential for the law to be flipped down the road --and a very strong incentive for those people wanting to choose to get that flip done, just as you are working so hard for right now.

Now, incremental change comes with a greater social acceptance and a sharp reduction in the problem.

The other thing about going all in on a draw is what happens when it doesn't hit!

You still are left with nothing, and you lose, out of the game.

The political landscape is about to change. This stuff isn't gonna be the divisive issue is was before. Those other human needs are gonna hit us front and center and are gonna get the attention.

There are a whole lot of people, myself included, who are just pissed to the max over the crap we've had to take, and divisive issues are one of the primary causes.

Think about it. You've essentially said that you don't care what happens to anybody so long as those rightie judges get seated.

Enough people grok that to say, "hey, what about me?", and that breeds a strong incentive to check that before too much harm is done.

That's all in, not hitting your draw.

Now, taking the incremental approach means putting your stack at risk, but also being able to capture the gains over time. Enough smart wagers, over enough time means being in a very strong leadership position.

That's established dominance and it's very potent.

Another way to look at it. I'm the other player watching you put your stuff at risk on draws. What do I do? Let you have the chips and wait.

At some point, I'm gonna have the upper hand, I'll call and you go broke. Then I can go about my ordinary business from a far better position.

Nobody likes the bully, be it cards, law, or life.

Missing said one thing that rings true.

"There will always be abortions"

You will NEVER get rid of them Herb...

Hey Herb check this out:

Liberal Moderate Conserv DK
23 41 29 6 2/20-24/08
20 40 36 4 3/7-11/07
20 47 30 4 3/92

Some simple poll numbers from Kos today. Let's say they are roughly accurate.

It's split into thirds.

So, a moderate appeal is gonna carry significant weight with most people. To get the majority, all that really has to happen is to not piss off the roughly half of us not firmly in one camp or the other.

Also, the numbers for younger people trend more liberal / progressive right now, meaning the core conservative base is gonna lose out to age and such over the next 10 years.

Think about that and your "all or nothing" proposition going forward.

"Nobody likes the bully..."

That's like calling those who spoke valiantly in favour of abolition bullies. Disagree all you want, but that name doesn't fit.

In the view of many, the ultimate bully is naral and those who profit from such dastardly acts.

Herb

Nah, the ulitmate bully is someone who supports government forced birth upon women who don't want to give birth.

Slavery could be ended cold. There are few physical realities that conflict with that goal. And nobody wants to be a slave.

Abortion isn't the same. Passing a law does not change physical realities. It's nice to think passing a law would eliminate the abortions, but it isn't reality.

Some people want abortions.

Given that, an extreme "no abortions period" stand is futile, until such time as technology redefines the boundaries of those physical realities.

And that is why the bully characterization fits Herb. That's it for me on this thread.

"...nobody wants to be a slave..."

True.

"Some people want abortions."

Some people wanted slaves.

You can run for a while, and you may be able to hide for a bit, but the truth will set you free.

Herb

Ah now we are back to "Truth." It is different for each of us.

Truth is in The Eye of the Beholder! From Your Point of View! From ones own perception! Walk a mile in their shoes before you judge! There can be no justice when laws are absolute!

Yeah, but nobody wanted to BE a slave, plus there were really no physical realities that mandated that. That left norms as the primary support for slavery. Strong law, given no physical barriers, can trump norms, if and only if, there are also strong personal motivations in that direction.

Again, nobody wants to BE a slave, and that will trump the norm for their being slaves, particularly if equality is also discussed.

Big differences. Those differences have a significant impact on how effective law can be. Law does not trump all. Again, there is money, law, physics and norms. All of these work together, to some degree, to impact how best to regulate behavior.

In the matter of slavery, the physics really were a low impact. In the matter of abortion, they have significant impact. Both also share norms, with those norms being strong, in both cases.

With Abortion, norms can have a very significant impact, and that's probably the primary reason to go at it incrementally!

Going all in on this issue is gonna generate kickback and that's gonna hose up the norms. Bad law is weakened by this kind of thing. The physics of it change the dynamic of it considerably, thus making direct comparisons with slavery inadequate for solid discussion.

(ok, so I'm not gonna open new discussion, but will follow up on comments made, ok?)

Do me a favor please. Go here:

http://pdf.codev2.cc/Lessig-Codev2.pdf

Download this PDF. Now this is a book on cyber issues, where technology, society and the law all intersect. Much of it isn't relevant.

However, the discussion on page 136 is enlightening.

Abortion comes up about page 147 or so.

Read through some of that please. The goal is not to get you hooked into a lot of cyber issues. It is to get you to think about law and regulation and what impacts what.

If you are gonna be bullish on something, might as well go for something really solid. That way it will be worth the effort in the end.

Also, a number of different and difficult cases where regulation was attempted are highlighted over that chapter. It shows the dynamic is far greater than, "we just gotta pass this law."

Go ahead, read about the segregation stuff. Facinating to watch norms and desires trump some pretty solid law and how that all plays out.

Short story, one has to work with people on complex issues, or stuff just isn't gonna happen.