Presidential concerns here?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/12/opinion/12luttwak.html

What concerns you about it?

Part of the article...re: an Obama Presidency...

At the very least, that would complicate the security planning of state visits by President Obama to Muslim countries, because the very act of protecting him would be sinful for Islamic security guards. More broadly, most citizens of the Islamic world would be horrified by the fact of Senator Obama’s conversion to Christianity once it became widely known — as it would, no doubt, should he win the White House. This would compromise the ability of governments in Muslim nations to cooperate with the United States in the fight against terrorism, as well as American efforts to export democracy and human rights abroad.

So?

Here in the land of the free, we don't care what your faith is. That's good enough for the world.

>>That's good enough for the world.

you've got to be kidding. What is an Islamic Terrorist to you?

"What is an Islamic Terrorist to you?"

No different from a Christian Terrorist.

Are you saying we should elect our leaders based on what terrorists think?

>>based on what terrorists think?

No...based on what they do and are planning to do to you and me...a goal to kill us/USA.

Give me an example/person of who a christian terrorist is?

Again, we don't care what your faith is. That's the law of the land, and it means that every one of us is free to hold whatever beliefs we feel are worthy.

The key is to not break the law. That law, by the way, is all about matters of property and freedom. That's it! The rest is for us to deal with.

I could, for example, hold the belief that the great KSKD demon god Borzond will end the world this weekend. My choice.

Blowing stuff up because I think it all won't matter, would then be breaking the law and that's where the line is.

And that boundary really defines what the problem is with an Islamic Terrorist.

Islamic people are free to hold their faith the same as anybody else! That's the American way, that's the law, that's what freedom really means.

Nobody is permitted to be a terrorist, and that too is the law.

An Islamic Terrorist then is somebody with some core character problems, not representative of the Islamic faith. This terrorist has boundary issues where they have not learned how to respect others and feel that violence is the best advocacy for their cause.

They are unacceptable people period. What their faith is does not matter. The act of terror does and that's the end of it.

Somewhere in this crap lies the implication that we will get hit by terror if Obama is elected.

This is bull shit, horse shit and a LOT of cow shit, for starters. Are you guys getting this crap in your e-mail every single day?!? I highly recommend dealing with that, for your own sanity and self-respect man. Seriously.

Let's go over the basics, say it with me now:

There is NO DISCUSSION on these things. None, zero, nada. It's not even on the table to consider discriminating against somebody based on their faith, race, sex, creed, gender, age, etc...

Americans do not do this. They are not going to do this, and continue to work hard on getting better at not doing this. (Some of us slip, and it is what it is.)

Think it through this way. Are we going to let other nations threaten us about our leaders? No. We are going to make our own decisions because we are a sovereign nation, a free nation, and a strong nation. I believe we are a better nation, and I believe it because of what I just wrote above. We have the higher ground in these things, there is no need to surrender any of it to simple fear.

We don't take shit right? RIGHT?

Good.

So this whole thread is silly. Admit it.

So should we elect or not elect our leaders based on hat terrorist might plan to do?

"Give me an example/person of who a christian terrorist is?"

Eric Rudolph (and those who hid him for years)

"Give me an example/person of who a christian terrorist is?"

I'll give you a Christian terrorist GROUP:

The Irish Republican Army. Ask the British about 15 years ago how warm and fuzzy the IRA was.

Here's another: The Aryan Nations.

Islam is a very peaceful religion in and of itself. The Koran does not preach violence and hatred. Some of its more fundamentalist, wacko followers use the word of the Koran to justify their terrorist ways.

Hmm, sounds an awful lot like Christianity, doesn't it?

As a Christian in media I had to Google his name to even find who he was! The man is not on my radar screen as a concern.
Eric Rudolph is no...I repeat...no example of what a Christian/Christ follower truely is...ok...ya got one who said he was a Christian (actually now he says he's Catholic) ...got another?

"Eric Rudolph is no...I repeat...no example of what a Christian/Christ follower truely is .. "

And 99% of Muslims say the exact same thing about Osama bin Laden.

"Eric Rudolph is no...I repeat...no example of what a Christian/Christ follower truely is..."

My point exactly.
But he considered himself a true Christian, as did tose who hid him.

Conversely, you must believe that an Islamic terrorist is a true example of a follower of Islam?

Now you are beginning to understand how silly this is Broadway.

Just as you say this nut bag is not representative of Christians, the Islamic people are gonna say the same thing about Islamic Terrorists!

Terrorists are terrorists. What faith they have, or how they rationalize being terrorists simply isn't a factor.

Given that, we have no justification to even entertain the idea that we should some how fear somebody getting elected because terrorists might do something about it.

And that's another thing Americans don't do. We don't cut deals with terrorists, we don't give them consideration, and we don't change one thing over their acts.

If we do, then we validate them and with that validation comes power at the cost of our weakness.

Timothy McVeigh

Religious beliefs
After his parents' divorce, McVeigh lived with his father; his sisters moved to Florida with their mother. He and his father were devout Roman Catholics who often attended daily Mass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh#Religious_beliefs

I went around and around with Herb a few months ago about Eric Rupolph.

The chilling thing I got out of that conversation was that Herb could not bring himself to condemn Eric Rupolph's actions (indicating tacit appoval).

The closest he could come was to admit that he should suffer the legal consequenses of his actions.

How about you?
Are you willing to condemn the murders he commited?

I am curious to see if any of you agree with these statements:

The world will not help, the people must help themselves. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it, we may wage the battle of our life. The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty - of Him who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward.

When an opponent declares, "I will not come over to your side," I calmly say, "Your child belongs to us already... What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community."

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter... In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders... Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

I am also curious if anyone can figure out who said these words.

I missed that one!

Are you kidding Amus?

Everybody had better be willing to condemn those acts. That means everybody.

I had to Google Littlesongs.

Our old pal Hitler!

Sobering isn't it everybody?

Thought so.

Amus vs. Herb on Eric Rudolph.

Good grief...Eric Rudolph has never been and never will be a leader in the Christian Community...just the opposite with his actions.

>>Support that statement

Very simple...Exodus 20:13 You shall not murder.

>>The Irish Republican Army

Mostly political in nature

>>The Aryan Nations

No ties to Christianity

That was scary quick Littlesongs!

This is probably one of the best things about sharing time online. The archives let us go back and see ourselves and others in that strange new light that comes from time.

If you've not tried this, do it. Go back and read through a thread from last year. You will see yourself, but apart from yourself, better able to judge what you see and maybe act on it.

There isn't anything else like it.

Yes Missing, it is quite sobering indeed.

We must be aware that the perversion of scripture, the enforcement of theocracy, and the banishment of free thought has been in the toolbox of many of the most evil men in our history.

The specific God that they believe in is irrelevant when their actions are murderous.

">>The Irish Republican Army

Mostly political in nature"

You're correct. And I was wrong, the IRA is a Catholic organization that was against the Protestant British rule of Northern Ireland. While they were political in nature, their actions and beliefs were based on religion. They continually bombed Heathrow Airport in the name of God. Sounds very Christian-like to me!

">>The Aryan Nations

No ties to Christianity"

With all due respect sir, you have no idea as to what the hell you're talking about in this instance. Richard Butler read from his Bible scripture that he used to support the cause of white supremacy, and he used the word of God to justify violent, terrorist actions against African-Americans and Jews.

Try again.

Can't argue with that.

I read through it. Remember that thread now. Saw that exchange and just passed. Ed dished out some smack huge on that one too. I call him the winner on that one, for sure.

On the topic of the archives... Once I went through that cycle (and it happened long before I contributed here), I realized that I started writing knowing that and it changed a few things.

One implication is that lies and misrepresentations will NOT stand the test of time. If any of us looks like an ass, we are gonna be on record as asses. That's discomforting enough to reconsider how to go forward.

Another then is that keeping track of that crap is a losing battle. Everybody will fail the test of time and be seen for the fake we are, so...

then the conversation has to be real. From there, no worries and only enlightenment and growth.

A look back, from that perspective is a good thing, not something to be feared, and with that realization comes simple confidence and power. It's a knowing where one really stands and why and that if it should somehow not be defensible, working on changing that is just human and ok and something to be encouraged.

If you fear going back in time to see who you were and what you wrote, then you fear yourself!

I wholeheartedly agree Missing. It is a good thing to explore our learning curve in retrospect.

A tip of my hat to Amus and Brianl for summing up things so well.

God as a loving entity is the only world-wide context that makes any sense. Whether factions historically label an action a "crusade" or a "jihad" it is still wrong. Any action that takes the life of another goes against the very teachings of the religions it reflects.

When every denomination and sect is willing to peel back the shrouds of self-righteousness, xenophobia and hate to expose the darkest natures of man, we will begin to live in a peaceful world.

When those who call themselves believers are brave enough to stand up for their faith, scream "no more" and sweep the murderers out of the church, mosque or synagogue, we may yet heal this planet and the wounded people who call it home.

I base Christianity/being a Christ follower on the basis of my lifestyle/actions/how I treat my fellow man. Theses groups you've mentioned and even a few modern day churches/pastors have raised themselves up with their form of false christianity that falls flat on its face and ends up jail literally. They are all misguided and don't know what the Bible truely teaches.

Are you willing to cut followers of Islam the same slack?

And,

based on what you've learned about Eric Rudolph, are you willing to condemn his actions?

Right. They are WRONG.

That's the whole point.

But it doesn't remove the fact that it has ties to Christianity.

Ok, so we know they are not representing you Broadway. Doesn't the fact that their actions, may well represent you to others bother you some?

(it should)

Why validate that then?

It's not in your best interests to even entertain this crap on anything even close to the level of being serious.

When you posted this as a political concern, did you think about this part of it, or was it just fear and or temptation to deliver a black eye to somebody you would disagree with?

Or what?

Isn't it far better to just work on the point of disagreement than it is to engage in these lame smears?

>>based on what you've learned about Eric Rudolph, are you willing to condemn his actions?

of course...a thousand times yes...and obviously the vast majority of Christians don't bomb abortuariums...they peacefully protest if they do anything.

>> Doesn't the fact that their actions, may well represent you to others bother you some?

Of course it bothers me...cuss your getting all wigg out with the wrong views of Christianity

>>Are you willing to cut followers of Islam the same slack?

When was the last time you read the Quran? I got an English version a couple of years ago and it is very scary read even just a few pages in.

So that's a no then, on the slack. (edited because I too appreciate your answer, simple, clean, direct)

What if they open the Bible and see the same thing?

There are lots of pretty ugly things in there you know.

"of course...a thousand times yes..."

Thank you!

" When was the last time you read the Quran? "

You know, that is an excellent challenge. I will give that some serious consideration. I know absolutely zilch about The Quran. It seems only fair that if I am going to take any issue with it ( and I haven't ) I should at least have a clue about what it actually says. I don't have any inclination to become an expert on it. But to have a passing knowledge of it's content surely couldn't hurt.

I wonder if I can get it in audiobook form. Or would that be like asking an Amish guy to borrow his iPod?

Broadway, how much of it did you read? Does it have a " King James Version " equivalent? ( A relatively accepted interpretation ).

"of course...a thousand times yes..."

Thank you!

Yes. Thank you for answering that so directly and clearly.

Bombing abortion clinics have never been a high calling on my list/and most Christians even though legalized murder is going on inside and that you really don't have much of it going on compared to the deaths going on daily inside the clinics. A vast majority of Pro-life advocates protest in a peaceful manor and do not endorse in any way "additional" killings. Does'nt ad up.

I acquired a copy of the Quran a few years ago on a qurk...in just a few pages in there were (to me) very stark racial comparisons between Jews-Christians-Muslims,etc that left me uncomfortable...never read that tenor from the Bible. IMHO

Funny thing though, all Semites came from Abraham. So, to condemn half of them out of hand is pretty silly, now aint it?

You will find that the Muslims, Jews and Christians have a whole lot in common if you are willing to compare the Quran, the Torah and the Bible with an open mind.

All three texts are rooted in the same myths, legends and regional history.

All three texts were written by man to control man.

>>All three texts are rooted in the same myths, legends and regional history
>>All three texts were written by man to control man
>>all Semites came from Abraham

all wrong,wrong, not right...and we've been through all of this on previous threads...IMHO

Sorry Broadway, you've been conditioned and brainwashed into believing stuff that just isn't true. Any book that you hold in your hand today was written by man unless you belive in magic.

>>been conditioned and brainwashed

By God Almighty and His Word...some strong life full-filling stuff...try it!

No thanks, I don't like cults.

Whoa there Broadway. So you have not read the Quran, but you know the ending, saw the movie or thumbed the Cliff's Notes? Are you aware that the roots of the King James Bible are in the Torah? Have you ever really interacted with someone of Jewish or Muslim faith and compared experiences?

Let's try an easy one first. To keep it non-denominational, we will refer to Wiki as a baseline source. Why would so many people have an almost identical forty day period of fasting in common?

Nativity Fast

"The Nativity Fast, is a period abstinence and penance practiced by the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Eastern Catholic Churches, in preparation for the Nativity of Christ, (December 25). The fast is similar to the Western Advent, except that it runs for 40 days instead of four weeks. The fast is observed from November 15 to December 24, inclusively.

Sometimes the fast is called Philip's Fast (or the Philippian Fast), as it traditionally begins on the day following the Feast of St. Philip the Apostle (November 14). Some churches have abbreviated the fast to start on December 10, following the Feast of the Conception by Saint Anne of the Most Holy Theotokos."

St. Martin's Day

"From the late 4th century CE to the late Middle Ages, much of Western Europe, including Great Britain, engaged in a period of fasting beginning on the day after St. Martin's Day, November 11. This fast period lasted 40 days, and was, therefore, called "Quadragesima Sancti Martini", which means in Latin "the forty days of St. Martin." At St. Martin's eve, people ate and drank very heartily for a last time before they started to fast. This fasting time was later called "Advent" by the Church."

Advent

"From the 4th century, the season was kept as a period of fasting as strict as that of Lent (commencing in some localities on 11 November; this being the feast day of St. Martin of Tours, the fast became known as "St. Martin's Fast," "St. Martin's Lent" or "the forty days of St. Martin"). The feast day was in many countries a time of frolic and heavy eating, since the 40-day fast began the next day. In the Anglican and Lutheran churches this fasting rule was later relaxed, with the Roman Catholic Church doing likewise later, but still keeping Advent as a season of penitence. In addition to fasting, dancing and similar festivities were forbidden."

Lent

"Lent, in some Christian denominations, is the forty-day liturgical season of fasting and prayer before Easter.The forty days represent the time Jesus spent in the desert, where, according to the Bible, he endured temptation by Satan. Different churches calculate the forty days differently.

The purpose of Lent is the preparation of the believer - through prayer, penitence, almsgiving and self-denial - for the annual commemoration during Holy Week of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus, which recalls the events linked to the Passion of Christ and culminates in Easter, the celebration of the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

In Western Christianity, but with the exception of the Archdiocese of Milan which follows the Ambrosian Rite, Lent begins on Ash Wednesday and concludes on Holy Saturday. The six Sundays in Lent are not counted among the forty days because each Sunday represents a "mini-Easter", a celebration of Jesus' victory over sin and death.

In those churches which follow the Byzantine tradition (e.g. Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics), the forty days of Lent are calculated differently: the fast begins on Clean Monday, Sundays are included in the count, and it ends on the Friday before Palm Sunday. The days of Lazarus Saturday, Palm Sunday and Holy Week are considered a distinct period of fasting."

Ramadan

"Ramadan is a Muslim religious observance that takes place during the ninth month of the Islamic calendar, believed to be the month in which the Qur'an began to be revealed. The name "Ramadan" is taken from the name of this month; the word itself derived from an Arabic word for intense heat, scorched ground, and shortness of rations. It is considered the most venerated and blessed month of the Islamic year. Prayers, sawm (fasting), charity, and self-accountability are especially stressed at this time; religious observances associated with Ramadan are kept throughout the month.

Laylat al-Qadr (also known as Shab-e-Qadr in Persian), literally the "Night of Decree" or "Night of Measures", is the anniversary of two very important dates in Islam that occurred in the month of Ramadan. Muslims believe that it was the night of the Laylat al-Qadr that the Quran's first verse was revealed. The exact night of the Laylat al-Qadr is only known to God and Muhammed but he chose to keep it to himself so that Muslims won't pray only that night. That is why Muhammad indicated that it was one of the last ten odd nights of Ramadan.

The Islamic holiday of Eid ul-Fitr marks the end of the fasting period of Ramadan and the first day of the following month, after another new moon has been sighted. The Eid falls after 29 or 30 days of fasting, as per the lunar sighting. Eid ul-Fitr means the Festival of Breaking the Fast, a special celebration is made. Food is donated to the poor ('Zakat al-Fitr'), everyone puts on their best, preferably new, clothes, and communal prayers are held in the early morning, followed by feasting and visiting relatives and friends.

During the month following Ramadan, called Shawwal, Muslims are encouraged to fast for a further six days."

Traditional and ancient religions have a whole lot in common. Not just in ritual, but in philosophy, lore and historical fact.

How about variations on a single day of fasting?

Yom Kippur

"Yom Kippur, also known in English as the Day of Atonement, is the most solemn and important of the Jewish holidays. Its central themes are atonement and repentance. Jews have traditionally observed this holiday with a 24-hour period of fasting and intensive prayer.

Yom Kippur is the climax of the Yamim Noraim ("Days of Awe"), and with Rosh Hashanah forms the Jewish High Holy Days. Leviticus 23:27 decrees that Yom Kippur is a strict day of rest and of fasting.

Total abstention from food and drink usually begins 30 minutes before sundown (called tosefet Yom Kippur lit. Addition to Yom Kippur ), and ends after nightfall the following day. Although the fast is required of all healthy adults, it is waived in the case of certain medical conditions. Virtually all Jewish holidays involve a ritual feast, but since Yom Kippur involves fasting, Jewish law requires one to eat a large and festive meal on the afternoon before Yom Kippur, after the mincha prayer. Wearing white clothing is traditional to symbolize one's purity on this day. Many Orthodox men immerse themselves in a mikvah on the day before Yom Kippur.

In accordance with Leviticus 23:27 the date of Yom Kippur is the 10 Tishrei ("the tenth day of the seventh month") in the Hebrew calendar."

Ashura

The Day of Ashura is on the 10th day of Muharram in the Islamic calendar and marks the climax of the Remembrance of Muharram but not the Islamic month.

It is commemorated by the Shi'a as a day of mourning for the martyrdom of Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson of the Islamic prophet Muhammad at the Battle of Karbala on 10 Muharram in the year 61 AH (December 10, 680 AD). Sunni Muslims believe that Moses fasted on that day to express gratitude to God for liberation of Israelites from Egypt. According to Sunni Muslim tradition, Muhammad fasted on this day and asked other people to fast.

In some countries and regions such as Iran, Trinidad and Tobago and Jamaica Commemoration of Husayn ibn Ali has become a national holiday and all ethnic and religious communities participate in it.

The word "ashura" means simply tenth in Arabic; hence the name of the remembrance, literally translated, means "the tenth day".

Again, why do you think so many religions have so much in common? Is it because people are so similar despite our differences? Fasting exists in many other cultures too. Even the Amish fast for St. Michael's Day right around the same time. Why?

Unless a person isn't rolling on the floor at his or her evangelical born-again Christian church, chirping in tongues and convulsing to the beat of DJ Holy Spirit, Broadway will never be satisfied.

Thank you once again, Littlesongs, for your time and research.

Chickenjuggler, I too was curious about Islam and the Qur'an and this version was most recommended by friends:
The Holy Qur'an with English Translation and Commentary
Maulana Muhammad Ali
ISBN 0-913321-01-X

The Qur'an is always written in Arabic, with any translated text alongside. I found this version especially handy for further study because of all the cross references provided, and the translator's insight.

Muslims believe that the only way to understand the Qur'an is to study it in Arabic, so you typically won't find one without the Arabic original.

>>Unless a person isn't rolling on the floor

Sorry you have a media skewed version of Christianity.

You need to know Jesus Christ FOR WHO HE REALLY IS!

>>So you have not read the Quran, but you know the ending, saw the movie or thumbed the Cliff's Notes

I have read enough. I have been raised in a Christian Home and the Bible has always been the focal point for my world view and everything else seems to muddy the waters.

Hey, I'm not asking to have your head for not believing the way I do nor do most Christians I know.

I'm pretty good at discerning many things, including Christianity laced with hate and vengeance. It reeks to high heaven, no pun intended. The whole evangelical movement seems rooted in fear and loathing – topped off with a smattering of appreciation for all things intolerant. The inclusion of Christ almost seems secondary – given the level of petulance one sees in the modern born-again Christian culture.

Tal...sorry you have these perceptions of Christianity/God's people which are still human and make mistakes/not perfect but forgiven. Yes, lots of what you see on Christian TV is bad and lots of cynics get their concepts of God there and not good. I would challenge you to visit a weekly "evangelical" fellowship and become more familiar of real Christianity...the local church...real people...not what's on the pc/tele.

I attend weekly services at a church which serves my spiritual needs rather well. What I hear on measure each Sunday is a message of love and tolerance. And yes, it is a Christian church, thank you very much. I must say though I don’t agree with all the positions taken by my church – and I’m certain that God forgives me for such an indiscretion.

What I don’t need in my spiritual life is to by led around by those who seek to call out those they feel don’t adhere to the tenants of their brand of Christianity. I find such conduct both appalling and repugnant. That’s my experience with those who follow the edicts of the modern evangelical movement. And too, they seem to dwell on the end times with great passion, claiming to have it all figured out just like those before them; obsessively prophesying “the end." Yet when the so-called appointed day and time come to pass, they look ridiculous – and it calls into question their integrity and good judgment. For determining “the end” is God’s call, not human beings.

"I have been raised in a Christian Home and the Bible has always been the focal point for my world view and everything else seems to muddy the waters."

Yep, education just might shatter that illusion of fairy tales you've been conditioned to believe.

So what BROADway is saying is that McSame should be elected because of this???
YOU'VE got to be kidding right???
COME ON MAN!
PULL YOUR GD HEAD OUT!

>>Yep, education just might shatter

Ya know I am not impressed by knowledge and education any more. We have all the knowledge and education we've ever had in the history of mankind and look where we are...still much of a depraved society...and thats here in America! We all need more of the Almighty in our lives to truely get proper perspective of life...He invented it, sustains it, gives us life daily with every miraculous heartbeat we get!
whoopes...I'm in radio...Back to auto...

Here is another apparent Christian Terrorist:

Church shooting press conference: shooter disliked "liberal movement"

LINK

>>another apparent Christian Terrorist

emphasis on the word "apparent"...loonicy applies to all ideology

exactly!!

Oh, the irony...

and oh to be human and sinful...but redemptive.

I stand corrected.
From the accounts I've read, this guy wasn't particularly Religious.

So he turns out to be just a domestic right wing terrorist.

Bill O'Reilly, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity on accused shooter's reading list

So this guy hates liberals, but one of things that set him off was that allotment of government-issued food stamps had been reduced.

The guy was nuts. He probably hated pineapples, squirrels and math too.

Executive transvestite.

LOL!!!

Only in it for the "perks"!