I thought we fought WWI and the Cold War to avoid this kind of thing.


Proposal
gives FBI
latitude
to snoop

Terror | Agents would be
allowed to use ethnic and
racial profiles as cause to
open investigations

By LARA JAKES JORDAN
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON — The Justice
Department is considering letting
the FBI investigate Americans without
any evidence of wrongdoing, relying
instead on a terrorist profile
that could single out Muslims, Arabs
or other racial and ethnic groups.
Law enforcement officials say the
proposed policy would help them
do exactly what Congress demanded
after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks:
root out terrorists before they strike.
Although President Bush has disavowed
targeting suspects based
on their race or ethnicity, the new
rules would allow the FBI to consider
those factors among a number of
traits that could trigger a national
security investigation.
Currently, FBI agents need specific
reasons — such as evidence or
allegations that a law probably has
been violated — to investigate U.S.
citizens and legal residents. The
new policy, law enforcement officials
told The Associated Press,
would let agents open preliminary
terrorism investigations after mining
public records and intelligence

It makes far more sense to spend money investigating a 90 year old grandmother from Iowa than it does someone from the Mid-East, a place where they have a religion that some have used as an excuse to kill us. Makes all the sense in the world.

...unless somebody has Grandma's son, and coerces her into doing bad things.

Didn't we do this already? McCarthyism?

Replace "Communist" with "Terrorist", and it's the same thing.

That sucked, we figured that all out. Tell me why we do it again now because a different group of fear mongers scared some people again?

It's gonna suck again, we are going to figure that out again.

Why even bother. That is what we keep our history for, isn't it?

I'm far more worried about having an Isreali national serving as our Homeland Security czar. (and he acts like a damn czar) Where exactly is his loyalty anyway? America or Isreal?

And he's been a big proponent of Israeli security procedures being brought here. Procedures like this unconstitutional discriminatory crap.

Americans don't do that kind of thing. We know better.

Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Very fitting.

"It makes far more sense to spend money investigating a 90 year old grandmother from Iowa than it does someone from the Mid-East, a place where they have a religion that some have used as an excuse to kill us. Makes all the sense in the world."

What if she were Tim McVay's grandma?

Deane said - " It makes far more sense to spend money investigating a 90 year old grandmother from Iowa than it does someone from the Mid-East, a place where they have a religion that some have used as an excuse to kill us. Makes all the sense in the world."

So, just to be clear, you are in favor of the proposal, right?

What does Deane have to worry about? He's an white old fart in the midwest. He certainly wouldn't be targeted. Deane represents your typical "I'm doing alright, fuck everybody else" mentality that seems to run rampant with the right wing mindset.

If I were in charge, I'd target old midwestern white men who I suspect cheat on their taxes. Who knows what else I could dig up once the books are opened.

Anytime we have a conversation about this sort of thing, I always think about the comment a Russian client of mine said when it was time for him to fill out the Patriot Act form that I require all clients to sign if they do business with me: "THIS IS WHY WE LEFT RUSSIA" is what he told me, in a thick Russian accent.

Vitalogy is out of ammunition again. Bring out the personal insults and attacks.



"What if she were Tim McVay's grandma?"

What if she were. She's not dangerous.

Facts are not insults, unless you don't like the facts.

Deane is for the proposal.

Is that right?

"What if she were. She's not dangerous."

How would we know if she were not dangerous. With the new standards, the FBI can shoot first and ask questions later.

"Deane is for the proposal.

Is that right?"


Yes, I am for the proposal. We shouldn't be wasting our valuable resources on the least likely to be offenders just to satisfy the liberals PC whims.

"With the new standards, the FBI can shoot first and ask questions later."

The proposal doesn't say anything about shooting.

Deane answered - " I am for the proposal. We shouldn't be wasting our valuable resources on the least likely to be offenders just to satisfy the liberals PC whims."

Do you admit that it goes a little deeper than just " liberal PC whims " being accomodated here? What about if it violates law to do so? I'm not saying it does, I'm asking " If it was found to be illegal, would you still support it? "

Then let's change the law.

Deane is anti-American.

Everybody, sing along:
"Now it is _1984_.
Knock, knock at your front door..."

"Deane is anti-American."

So what are you doing these days with the meds. One penis enlargement pill to each stupid pill, or is it the other way around?

Of course, if you say that you support profiling of people who are not like you, yet you protest the thought of people who are like you getting profiled, then a valid question is, "Do you have something to hide?" Do you see how this suspicion game works?

When Scandinavians like me start blowing up America and announce they want all Americans killed, I'll gladly submit to racial profiling. After all, I'm interested in a safe and secure America to live in.

Well, then if you have nothing to hide, then you shouldn't mind answering a few short questions and submitting to a brief inspection. Consider it a formality. After all, you have nothing to hide, right?

Ask away. Oops, wait a minute. The Scandinavians haven't attacked the U.S.

" Then let's change the law."

Let's change the law to, what? Make it legal?

"After all, I'm interested in a safe and secure America to live in."

Yet you support policies that make it less safe and at the same time takes away our constitutional rights. Your kind of thinking gives the terrorists what they want.

Deane: Profiling is ok. We don't need liberty as much as we need security.

Others: WTF !?! Are you Serious?

Deane: Absolutely.

CJ: What if that's illegal?

Deane: Change the law then.

Vit: That's Anti American.

That's a quick summary of the exchange.

Here's the deal:

That's what this election is all about. The core definition of what is and what is not American and or America rests with us and our courts.

Vote McCain, and that definition is going to favor Deane.

For what it's worth, changing the law is the right thing to do, given that change is done within the process given to us. Packing courts, lying, cheating, stealing, distorting (shock policy of fear to convince people change is needed is a distortion), isn't really using the process.

That's more of a coup than anything else.

So, we've got a percentage of us who really, really want to redefine how this nation works and what it stands for. They want this at all costs and they express that in terms of fear based thought.

(That's you Deane)

The rest of us are wondering why we need to do this when it's not been demonstrated that our traditional American values won't do the job.

We are gonna get that question answered this cycle. The case for a Bush type of America has been made. We've lived it, got to kick around the tires and can choose, eyes wide open.

IMHO, fair, if painful, question.

So, how you answer really comes down to being able to surrender those great American things without them having been tested. This is a fear based decision and as such, it's also not a rational one.

I'm voting Obama because I need to see core things like due process, habius corpus, equally applied law, democracy, etc... actually flat out fail.

That's not happened folks!

What did happen is that we elected an administration that just went ahead and behaved as if all that stuff failed, and look where we are now!

It's not good.

Seems to me that's an excellent case for actually sticking to the traditional American means and methods, more than it is some statement that it's ok to leave that stuff behind.

We are in this mess because our leaders were not strong American leaders, not because terror somehow invalidated our history and the work our founders did.

Think about it.

Think really hard!

Electing McCain will fill the SCOTUS with enough Deane type justices to make the change. America will be redefined for most of our productive adult lives.

Do you really want that, knowing the tried and true American formula was never really tested against terror? It worked with everything else, brought us to propserity, made us great, changed the world.

It has never failed us, yet here we are watching some very vocal and determined people try to make it go away. They think if we are scared enough, hurt enough, die enough, that we will see it their way and just bend over and let them rule over our freedom, un-checked because we are "scared" and we should "trust them", because they can help.

I'm not buying this. Again, before I submit to America being redefined in this way, there has got to be a solid reason. It's got to just not work, leaving us no options.

We've not seen that yet. Don't you think we need to?

I do.

Obama '08

And then they came for the voice trackers. But there was no one left to defend them, because no one listen to the radio. . .