After watching this video, I have my serious doubts. I think it's more of his anti-American mind set that supporters want to bury their heads in the sand and overlook.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZprtPat1Vk

Deane, did you watch the video? Was the sound turned up? Do you agree with any of what he said?

Knowing how to speak another language is anti-American? I disagree with that.

And if he is anti-American, then he is " Pro - " what? Mexican?

"Deane, did you watch the video?"

Of course I watched the video. I don't think he should be advising American citizens that they should be teaching their children Spanish. English is the language of this country, and to live here that's all you need. Anything else is a personal choice.

Obama and his wife keep advancing the position, one way or another, that they are elitists who are ashamed of the US. How can this type person, who appears not to believe in what America has been for 200+ years be it's leader.

This is just the next wave of GOP crap.

Yeah, I got the memo.

Basically, the idea is to just start framing all the questions in such a way as to form the idea that this election is a referendum on Obama.

It's just as easy to ask, "Will McCain deal with the border problem?" The ASSumption being that McCain will deal.

Doing this will keep McCain out of the spotlight as much as possible. If Obama is taking the heat, McCain does not have to, and since he's weak, he's got far more to lose than Obama does.

A lot like drafting behind the lead car in a race, only to have some of the leaders pit guys in your pocket, so that if you can just keep it close, they will make for a stumble of some kind right at the end.

Never mind who might actually be the better driver.

Of course, the right question is do we have a border problem, and if so, which of the two candidates appear better to address it?

"How can this type person, who appears not to believe in what America has been for 200+ years be it's leader?"

A REPUBLICAN is asking this, after all the party has done?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Excuse me.

Thanks.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

So, you admit Bush is your standard of excellence?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Missing, are you choking on a fish bone or something?

Just laughing my ass off.

"It's just as easy to ask, "Will McCain deal with the border problem?" The ASSumption being that McCain will deal."


McCain isn't going to be the next President, Obama is. That makes his instincts and beliefs of prime importance. When he says we should start teaching our children Spanish, that says something that scares me.

Why? What will happen if my child learns to speak spanish? And don't schools already offer Spanish language courses?

We're not talking about someone learning to speak Spanish because they want to. We're talking about needing to because it becomes the dominate language of the land.

Obama was warning people that they better get prepared.

I saw nothing in the clip relating directly to his views on border patrol, nor did I see anything anti-American, so instead I will address the actual topic covered.

The only potential problem I see in that clip is the suggestion of teaching all students Spanish (which the elementary schools have already been doing for the last 50 years) with no mention of teaching more students Mandarin, if they really want to go places.

Arrogant Americans may be the only people on the planet who insist on "one language only" while expecting the rest of the world to be bi-lingual when we travel in their countries, or make overseas business transactions.

Even if we could somehow wipe out all illegal immigration there would still be a sizable number of legal immigrants and tourists who speak languages other than English. If America wants to continue the vast number of business deals with foreigners and foreign countries we need to speak the languages and not just arrogantly insist that America, Anericans and American English be treated as the world's be-all and end-all.

Some of the most intelligent people I've met speak several languages, while some of the most ignorant, backward and rabidly anti-intellectual people I've met are the ones supporting this short-sighted "English Only" crap.

"English Only" has little to do with border patrol, but a lot to do with outright racism and a mindset that is anti-everybody except "red blooded" white Americans of European ancestry.

Instead of being pissed off when having to choose "English" at the ATM, why not advocate having several other languages to choose from so foreigners will have more accessible money to spend here. It would be the American capitalist way.

Chickenjuggler wrote:
Deane, did you watch the video? Was the sound turned up? Do you agree with any of what he said?

Are you kidding? Deane no doubt composed his anti-Obama post first and then searched around for any video of Obama talking about immigration.

Andrew

Deane, you are mistaken. Having people that know how to speak Spanish is nothing to fear. In fact, I do not even believe that YOU believe what you are implying. It's just a clumsy grasp at the old trick of planting fear.

Cry wolf about something else. Not about being bi-lingual or spanish becoming the dominant language. It ain't gonna happen.

I can't comment on the video because youtube is a site that our internet nazi's block here at work.

However, I fail to see what's wrong with children learning Spanish, or any other second language.

All I see from Deane's post is more of the same racist, elitist, attitude.

Like I've said a few times previously:

Annoy a conservative
Get educated

The reason you libs don't catch on is that you don't want to.

When Obama says "we shouldn't be worrying about immigrants learning English, what we should be doing is teaching our kids to speak Spanish", that says something about his mindset.

I fully understand he's your golden boy, but it might be to your advantage to look a little below the surface.

OK. I will.

Meanwhile, I don't see how my child learning spanish is anti-American. Is it any language? Or just Spanish that makes it anti-American?

CJ, I know you're not as stupid as you keep letting on here. Obama was saying it's not up to the immigrants to learn English when they come to this country, it's up to us to learn Spanish instead.

Yeah, it's [Obama's mindset] one where people get along, and work to improve themselves and add value.

Being bi-lingual, or even multi-lingual is valuable, particularly in this global economy. I myself am considering another language here in the near future. There are just too many opportunities to leverage being able to do that.

Learning languages is easiest when we are young. It also helps considerably with other areas of cognition, making a case for doing this for it's actual merits alone.

Stepping out a bit farther, to look at language itself, it's increasingly clear that:

-English isn't going anywhere. It's very adaptable and robust and expressive. Of the languages out there, it's really well suited for general use.

Besides, most of the sciences use it more than any other.

If it had the flaws Latin has, for example, it would die, leaving it's core constructs and roots for something better to use.

That's freaking ENGLISH! Good grief.

So, no worries there.

-It's not possible to legislate these things. People will do what they do and they will interact how they interact. Denying this is just old school authoritarianism and will lead quickly to a full on revolt where the people take the time and energy to tell establishments who is the boss in these things.

-we are in more danger of losing our culture and traditions to corporate and authoritarian entities than we are from an influx of newbies, who may speak other languages, and might want to go to a different church, or something.

Hell, maybe this is all part of a grand master plan to become such facist assholes that nobody would want to come here! (and I'm open to that case being made and that's sad.)

(goes back to laughing his ass off)

Oh, forgot to get this on the record, highlighted and noted:

---

quote:

Author: Deane_johnson
Wednesday, July 09, 2008 - 2:26 pm

[...]

McCain isn't going to be the next President, Obama is. That makes his instincts and beliefs of prime importance.

---

So far, everyone has changed the subject to avoid the issue. I guess I got my answer.

Yeah, sorry that was rough.

A little work on your framing will see some solid discussion. Try it, it works, trust me.

For example:

(given my re-framed question above)

I'm not convinced we have a border problem! A free nation is kind of silly with a big ass fence around it, don't you think?

(I do)

So, why are they coming here?

They are coming here because it really sucks there, and only kind of sucks here, that's why.

Why work on the symptom instead of the disease?

Lots of things could happen!

We could leverage all those new people. Frankly, I like that idea way more than I do putting up fences or passing draconian legislation that will be abused in other situations.

Besides, what's wrong with having more Americans? Nothing!

So, another part of the problem is people being here who are not Americans.

That splits up too. We can either get after them in draconian ways, or we can sign them up to be Americans!

I say we make becoming a citizen something achievable, and that we get some work done from them at the same time. Once they are Americans, they are gonna do stuff, pay taxes, have families, maybe become part of the military, invent things, build things, you name it.

I would start by really working hard to make sure that the benefits of being an American are clear, worthy, and only available to Americans, and those authorized by Americans.

(work visas and such)

That leaves non-Americans trying to make it here, and that won't be all that easy, which encourages them to just step up and become Americans!

Now, with all those new bodies becoming citizens, what to do with them? Why, put them to work, that's what? We need new roads, schools, buildings, cars, and all sorts of stuff.

Oh yeah, we really don't make anything. Well, then that's a problem right? Too many consumers, consuming and nobody will have enough.

---and that's the real problem right there!

So fix that, and suddenly having more Americans only makes us stronger, not weaker, more diluted, unstable.

Remember those trade agreements where we've outsourced our quality work to other places? Yeah, those things that essentially limited our ability to build wealth and do for our own?

Those are the problem, not failure to "defend the borders".

I don't know what Obama is going to do, but I hope he does things that creates good jobs here, building things we need. Maybe lots of alternative energy tech and infrastructure. Gonna need labor to build that all out.

As soon as we start putting our dollars into efforts to build stuff here, provide for ourselves and ideally export things to correct our huge ass trade deficit, we will need people to help.

The more people we have, the more taxes we collect, the bigger the build outs can be, and the bigger the scope of the efforts can be.

After working through that, I'm asking what Obama is going to do to help empower people to sell their talents here and get a good wage in return.

What my question is, if it was originally framed unclearly, is "will a person who thinks we should learn Spanish instead of immigrants learning English have the appropriate desire to deal with the illegal immigration issue?"

I don't think a border fence is worth anything. Build a 15' fence and they'll get a 16' ladder.

What we need to do is crack down on the employers. If there were no jobs for someone who was undocumented, the problem would be greatly reduced and would start to take care of itself.

Edit: Totally agreed on employers. If we can't actually pay minimum wage for those jobs, well then either we automate, help the employer out, or buy that stuff and focus our labor on stuff we can pay minimum wage for.

(left the rest)

The language issue has absolutely nothing to do with illegals coming here. Or maybe it's just better to say that strong attempts at language regulation won't do any good. Pick one!

If we could really regulate language to the degree necessary, we would have to violate our protection on free speech. Besides, as people, it just does not work. We've tried banning books, words, all sorts of stuff, yet if the people feel that means of expression makes sense, they just do it. IMHO, this is one area where law is clearly trumped by social norms.

Failure to enforce labor laws does impact the problem. Availability of services does too, which is why I think keying services to citizens, or those documented people here on our approval is a really good idea.

It's a free country, so I don't think just being here is criminal. I think that's true largely because our core law spells out what our government can do to people. That's just people, not citizens.

We disagree on that, but if you take it out the other way, it also seems to me there are limits on what our government can do FOR people too, and that's where I justify keying our good public works to citizens as much as is possible.

Oregon is currently working on this, forcing people to come up with proof of birth to get licenses. It's a start. Other things follow from that, making it harder for those people here because they can be to get stuff.

Being a citizen here comes with advantages. The clearer that is, the less of a problem we will have.

And that's why failure to really enforce the labor law is harmful too. If one can come here and just make money, under the table, well that tax free income is likely to be better still than what they get at home. Combine that with assistance programs and now we are paying the difference!

That makes no sense to me at all.

Did you ever consider that improving our base of Spanish speaking people might just make that path to citizenship easier? It might also improve being able to make use of the people as well.

The reality is a lot of Spanish is spoken here. Interacting and managing those people will require language skills.

That's all Obama is getting at. Nothing wrong with that, unless we don't want to interact and or manage them. And where's the case for that?

Hey, sorry to pick at things like framing, but where we are now is a LONG way from start of thread. You gotta admit man, it was off the mark.

Besides, we can't legislate language. Pointing out that other languages are going to bring us an advantage is way different than saying, "this is the language".

You are a free market kind of guy right? Well, this is one of those economic things, plain and simple. English is the language here because it makes the best overall sense!

If that changes, well then the language will change. In fact, language changes all the time.

Look at the "all your base belong to us" chinglish going on right now! It's actually evolving into a dialect that conveys the ideas, still uses english words, but strips off a lot of constructs that we are used to, but really don't need.

Give this a read. I think you will find it interesting:

http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/16-07/st_essay

I think that people who are in the United States illegally and break the law should be deported. That's not to say I favor ICE raids on Del Monte type plants, but I do take umbrage at illegal aliens committing crimes in this country and not being deported. If you're going to live under the radar, do it responsibly. If not, goodbye.

Deane, Obama is not saying that we should learn Spanish and immigrants should not learn English. What he is saying is that those people that are bi-lingual stand a better chance in the market place. I have several friends that are completely bi-lingual in both Spanish and English, and they are all using this to their advantage in the job place. Frankly, I wish I knew Spanish, because there's times when I could apply that skill to my benefit.

Only in redneck America would shunning teh learning of a second language be the norm.

In general the border issue was so last year. Furthermore no and I stress NO mainstream politician will do anything about the issue of the border or illegal immigration PERIOD!

Also Deane the language you need to be encourgaging others to learn is not spanish but more importantly mandarian.

Where does all of Deane's hate come from?

Blue envy. Not even Dr. House could fix this one.

"will a person who thinks we should learn Spanish instead of immigrants learning English have the appropriate desire to deal with the illegal immigration issue?"

Yes.

There.

Will you at least explain how this would be a bad thing? I mean, how would it actually manifest itself in the real world? ( Learning spanish ). What would happen beyond what is already happening? Teachers speak spanish. Students speak spanish. Employers, employees, pastors, members of congress.

Have you ever even spoken to someone who speaks spanish? Where was that? What was the result? Did you not get the service you needed because they spoke spanish? Were you unable to get what you needed because they spoke spanish?

I get 10 million times more frustrated by retards who speak only english and work at call centers for major corporations in The United States and make shit up if they don't know the answers to my questions. Causing me to make decisions based on their shitty information. That's the kind of real world example I'm asking for from you, Deane; How would a spanish speaking population negatively manifest itself in your world in a way that you would even know that they spoke spanish? Or, like the ACLU, is it just the knowledge that they are " out there " enough for you?

Also, how would someone learning english provide a solution to illegal immigration? What if they can speak english? Do they then get to stay?

Pick a question. Any question.