Praying for your vote? Does God really care who wins? Just like the athlete that prays to God so his team can win. Does God take sides in these battles?
Where is Herb and Wayner when you need them?

They are praying McCain wins so they don't have to face being under Obama's watch. He's not gonna take this partisan, divisive, wedge issue crap. And that means the stuff they think is the most important, really won't be and that's kind of scary.

I've been looking for a way to say the following without sounding overly stern or mean;

I am very grateful that Herb no longer is interested in posting here. He and his ilk have done a LOT of damage to God's reputation and I, for one, still remember.

But let's talk about " the ilk " for a minute.

They have shot themselves in the foot SO bad that I find it hiliarious and tragic that they NOW say things like " God doesn't care about this election." I found people saying that in my own church and it has caused me to really, deeply, question things.

Maybe Bush's true legacy will be that he forced a lot of people to come out of the woodwork and from under rocks, say things as if they spoke for God himself, out loud, and it didn't hold up. NOW they hope that my memory is short and that I forget that they claimed victory for God from everything from Bush's election to their rice not being too sticky for their sushi party. So to have to admit that God DOES care about the election, when it doesn't look like it's going to go their way, puts them in a weird position; Whomever wins the election will do so because God wanted them to win and anyone who voted otherwise was going against God's will. Right? Because that was the standard in other situations - so it has to remain the standard this time. Right?

Right.

But no. That's not REALLY right because, if I have done my math right, I see no evidence shown by " the ilk " that there even is a God. And let me just repeat the important part of that " I see no evidence shown by " THE ILK " that there is a God." I see other things that give me hope and faith that there might be a God. But NONE of those come from " the ilk."

All those efforts to threaten me, scare me, rattle their swords, speak for God himself and never show any joy about knowing God has had the exact opposite effect in trying to get me closer to God. It has pushed me very far from wanting to be a member of that club with whom they are members; Man, if that's what being close to God does to a person, I want to stay as far away as possible.

And don't give me that trite bullshit of " You're looking too low. Humans are flawed." YEAH! I KNOW! I'VE BEEN SCREAMING THAT FOR 6 YEARS AROUND HERE! It would be great if you actually applied that in your everyday life instead of using it as a shield when you are exposed for having been so wrong so many times and deep down, know that you are probably pissing God off.

The Ilk had their run and they blew it.

And I'm not forgetting that on this Sunday.

See ya.

I've been there for quite some time. For me, it's actually difficult to even consider supporting that mess. Doing so causes real harm, somewhere, some how to somebody.

It's hard to step up and believe after both having been on the receiving end of that crap, and seeing how ugly it really is.

I had a great conversation with somebody who posts here from time to time. We touched on this very topic and I must say, it was a very nice Sunday conversation.

I know now that there are good people who practice good religion and it has done good things for them and they just want to share that, in the earnest and selfless hope that perhaps it can work for somebody else.

After a lot of consideration, I think that is worth the other crap. I'm not there where practicing any religion is concerned, but I totally understand and support those that are there.

At the end of the day, religion is what any of us thinks it is. And as such, it is a reflection of who we are. And this next part is ugly, but I'm gonna just come right out and say it:

some of us are not all that good of people. This shows in religious expression. There is an upside though!

CJ, the questions you are asking are very common right now. Honestly, I think that's good. Don't get me wrong on that. It's not that I think my side is winning, or anything like that.

It's more like it had to get ugly enough for people to actually be threatened (and that part isn't over just yet) enough to realize this stuff is more than some game with no real consequences.

Call it a very long and expensive civics lesson. If anything, more of us are finding out just who we are and why that matters, and anytime that happens, I think it's good for people in general.

It also affirms something that drove me to start talking to people online too. Back in 2003, when the aggressive push for all this horrible stuff was at it's peak, and WORKING, I came to a point where I had to know.

Was I wrong in my core positions on these things? Was going down that road really better for us? Was I simply running in denial from all the bad experiences I had as a teen, that took most of my 20's to sort out?

Is the increasingly corporate, "serve the perfect markets?" way to go the best way? Do dollars really make the best decisions?

Is even asking worth it?

Some of those things I still don't have answers for. I do know that having the conversation is the right thing to do, and I am extremely happy I decided to just put it out there, raw. That took some serious effort on my part, and I have suffered more than a little bit of fear at times too.

Doing so means also putting the potential for change on the table and that means literally that I could end up being somebody else!

The gamble was in the process and on those core ideas I've had about real conversations and what they mean and how they work.

If I was wrong on those, then I would change and end up drinking some other kool-aid and not know any better.

That still could be true, and that's one of the things I don't yet have answers for.

My wife and kids want to do church. There is a good one here, and I think we are going to go down that road. I don't believe. I may never again believe. I'm scared to actually believe after having done the work to sort stuff out, the idea of walking down that road again seems on the surface foolish.

(do I want to spend my 50's the same way I spent my 20's, knowing this time I asked for the shit?)

CJ, your posts here help, BTW. I hope you know that. There are others too, but I'm on this thread and in this mood, so I'm telling you that.

You nailed it too. That's the dilemma. Either God cares about this election, or he doesn't. If he does, then just what do the current results say about all that ugly shit?

Doesn't it mean all those nasty questions and hard, honest push back seen in discussions like this everywhere, mean that those people have a big ass character problem?

Doesn't it mean they need to do some growing up, do the self work to be decent people, suck it up and join the rest of us, strong enough to see where we are fuckers and do the work to fix that?

And that's where church is tough. I can't stand enablers. I was an enabler, and leaned on enablers a LOT and they enabled me to be an ass and took me down a self-directed course to mental hell.

I'm out now, for the most part. Feeling good about that. There is always work to do, and it's there because we are flawed. It sucks, but that's how it is. I suspect the world would be a lot less interesting, if there were some easy known solid fix for that stuff, and that it would stick the first time.

Gathering in large groups means having the support we need to deal with who we are. This is both good and bad.

If we have good people, trying to be better people, then it's a good thing right?

On the other hand, if we've got asses, working hard at convincing others that they really are not asses, and supporting themselves in sort of a circle-jerk of ass solidarity, then they end up being more potent asses, and we generally end up then having to live with the stink more than we would otherwise have to.

Then there are people who know they are asses, and rather than deal with that, they just do the work to make sure the world is ok with their kind of ass. Those types are offensive to me, big.

Finally, there are those good people, who happen to be asses, but they don't know it, largely because they were brought up with and continue to be supported by asses!

They are hurt right now, in shock, thinking evil is winning and that there is no hope. What a mind fuck that is.

So, for now, I spend my Sunday mornings thinking over the week, looking for answers, sometimes just dealing, wondering where do we go from here?

And that's gonna be exactly the question next year.

(cont)

This is all about those people, who don't know.

I fear the 23 percenters, and that's roughly those in freaking love with Palin right now, won't rest. They have too much invested in this thing to give it up and just say, "ok, we are asses, let's go and do some work to fix it"

That's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen because the kind of personality that it takes to get us here, just doesn't roll over and surrender. No way, no how. They will just work harder, because doing anything else means actually having to come to terms with they, themselves, being asses.

Means looking in the mirror and asking, "wow, what have I done, what have I been a part of, how many people really hate my sorry ass"

So then, come election day, they will double down big. They were all in, and are gonna borrow to play the next hand, secure in the knowing they have already earned their VIP pass to that golden afterlife, so there is nothing to lose here, but time.

And that realization is depressing to me. I want to just kick back a bit and let some good stuff happen. I know it's not gonna be that way though, and that's the shattering of my political naivete' posted right up here for all to see.

and that hurts some.

No, it's gonna take a sustained effort, for a good long time to actually secure some of the good things I value --we value. And I mean basically all of us, but those 23 percenters.

Sometimes the world sucks!