---Atheist placard joins tree, Nativity scene on display in Wash. Capitol---

OLYMPIA, Wash. (AP) — An atheist group has unveiled an anti-religion placard in the state Capitol, joining a Christian Nativity scene and "holiday tree" on display during December.

The atheists' sign was installed Monday by Washington members of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a national group based in Madison, Wis.

With a nod to the winter solstice in late December, the placard reads, in part, "There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

The foundation's co-president, Dan Barker, said it was important for atheists to offer their viewpoint alongside the overtly religious Nativity scene and Christmas-style holiday tree.

"Our members want equal time," Barker said. "Not to muscle, not to coerce, but just to have a place at the table."

The three displays, all privately sponsored, were granted permits from state groundskeepers to be placed in the Capitol's grand marble hallways.

The 25-foot noble spruce, called the "Capitol Holiday Kids Tree," is sponsored by the Association of Washington Business and tied to a charity drive for needy families. It's been a Capitol fixture for nearly 20 years. The Nativity scene was installed more recently, and a menorah has been displayed in the past.
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I believe they have every right to say this. What to you think?

The evangelical christian movement has effectively grabbed center stage in every discussion of the role/non-role of religion in America. It is nice to see the other side of the argument finally fighting back. More power to 'em.

Agreed.

From where I stand, they are just pushing it huge, everywhere they can in the public sphere, hell bent on the idea that this nation some how is theirs.

They say "christian nation", but really, they mean theirs. Dominionists, all of them.

More power indeed!

If the nativity scene is permitted, then it's all permitted. All or nothing. Frankly, I would prefer nothing. That way, religion is a personal thing, not a public thing, just the way it should be.

However, if this persists, and I see no sign of it stopping now, then it's game on! Post up all points of view, and let's make decent discourse of it.

Anyone here in favor of eliminating Christmas as a national holiday?

Changing the name would be a start because for one thing Jesus wasn't even born on the 25th of December and is getting pretty damn tired of his powerless Father being unable to get a message to anyone on this planet.


On a somewhat related topic, interpreting the first testament, it is clear the Bible favors a monarch-style system of governance, while the second testament reflects a communist system. Heh. (Religious zealots never acknowledge the herd of elephants in their room.) I suppose we ought to add a hammer and sickle to the navity scene.


I also think replacing the bright star with a goats head pentagram better represents the differences in our society.


Today's words of wisdom:

If you want your Navity scene unmolested, keep it off public property.

I think that they have the right to put their display there. (Even if they are wrong!!)

Christmas is too important of a holiday to eliminate it as a national holiday.

Of course if they did, I'd just use a vacation day to celebrate it.

> Anyone here in favor of eliminating Christmas as a national holiday?

Given that it has largely turned into a huge, extended orgy of consumerism, maybe it is time for Christmas to go. Way back when, the Puritans got sick of the drunken revelry that went on at Christmas parties, and to clean up society, they banned them!!

Pro-Christ folks are lucky they've an unlikely backer on keeping Christmas a holiday -- unions.

That's funny Skep.

No. I'm fine with the holiday.

There is something we've learned about the dominionist nut-bags, and that is they will try to smear every good thing with the stink of their values because they just can't help it.

Gotta get the word out!

I think they are more afraid of being ignored and marginalized than they are anything else. If we just celebrate our way, and tune them out, they then just don't matter.

This is what our family does. The root of Christmas is pagan. The current incarnation of Christmas is decidedly corporate and commercial to the nines! I think that part of it is morbid.

Factor out the corporate bit, and I think everybody else can just share it and get along!

I simply celebrate the Christ child's birth into our world. It doesn't matter what time of year that would have been nor does it really matter to me.

The prostitution of the holiday has never affected me personally.

I grew up in a family where my parents stressed the importance of others first then our needs. This has been a wonderful gift that we are attempting to pass along to our kids.

As far as the laws of our land regarding equal time, like Skybill, those who don't like, don't believe or want to make a political statement certainly have their right to do so. The more we can express our differences the better we'll be at working on solutions.

Skep I have always appreciated your posts because you force me to reevaluate my own personal belief system. That's a good thing.

Actually the "Father" as I believe, has been communicating with our world for thousands of years. The biggest and most important communication the Good Lord made was Jesus of Nazareth. Now whether you view him as historical figure, myth, enlightened human being or Son of God, Jesus' life and ministry forever changed the way people view God.

This is not a call for you to believe what I beleive Skep, but just a reminder that reading the Bible brings up more questions than answers. Some of my Christian brothers and sisters would disagree. I'm okay with that.

But don't you think it was a little bit strange the way in which Jesus, the Savior entered into this world? It was so radically different from what the Jewish nation and others expected. Which pretty much describes Jesus' time on earth as well.

I am nearly done reading the entire Bible in 90 Days. This sweeping look at scripture has been helpful in seeing the entire body of work and how it all fits together. I believe I have a much better understanding of both Old and New Testaments than ever before. Or at least a better appreciation.

Just a reminder that the God of the Old Testament works differently in our world today than in the ancient world. Same God, different times, different messengers.

Chris, that's the absolute best post you have ever written...mainly cause I agree with all of it! Merry Christmas!

Merry Christmas to you too Dan. And thank you.

Chris, do you think that perhaps we are overdue for a rewriting of the Bible (Third Testament)? Not that I think it can be done in these times, but an updated version would certainly ease many of the divisions in today's society (although weaken traditionally strong church leaders like the Pope).

So Skep maybe this little video is a step in the right direction.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/c0cf508ff8/prop-8-the-musical-starring-jack-bla ck-john-c-reilly-and-many-more-from-fod-team-jack-black-craig-robinson-john-c-re illy-and-rashida-jones

More than 200 calls an hour kept workers busy at the state Department of General Administration and the Governor's Office on Wednesday after Fox News commentator Bill O'Reilly declared war on what he thinks is an assault on Christmas.

Read the entire article in The Olympian:

http://www.theolympian.com/112/story/685631.html

Mine was one of the very first ones. I was listening to the show, heard the producer drop the number, so I dialed.

The lights were filling up as we spoke.

I expressed thanks at working hard to be non-discriminatory.

For what it's worth, I think the group could have chosen their message a bit better than they did, but:

"There is only the natural world. Religion hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

is a perfectly viable, and defensible point of view to express.

If we had more religious people, working on living their religion, then perhaps "hardens hearts and enslaves minds" wouldn't have to be said.

IMHO, they reap exactly what the sow, and a lot of good religious people get slammed for it.

What a mess!

LOL @ chris


Chris, I think an ideal Bible would discourage the judging and preaching of others and let God handle that directly.

Should be the second commandment.

Would fix a lot of stuff.

Thou shall not judge others; this is the domain of your one, true Lord God.

Amen!

Skep. We have two pastors, a Lutheran and a Presbyterian, who live two houses down from me and are married to each other. On their car reads the following bumper sticker:

"Non-judgement Day is coming."

And an FYI: the Bible is probably the most translated book ever written. You already have many contemporary versions including Eugene Peterson's "The Message." Or the Cotton Patch Bible, which comes from the African -American perspective. JB Phillips New Testament, or William Barclay's New Testament. Or the Good News Bible, like Peterson's The Message is one person's view which for some is problematic because of their scholarship.

There's also the Jerusalem Bible which includes Jewish, Protestant and Catholic scholars in Jerusalem.

All this to say, the Bible is continuously being re-done so that those who come from different traditions can read it's good news in a language or vernacular they can understand.

I like that sticker!

I just listened to Thom Hartmann this morning. He made a very convincing case for this being poor form. It's valid, in that it's a rational point of view, but it's also toxic in that it not only is an expression of the athiest POV, but a negative expression of the theist point of view.

Thom made a case that's been made here before too. Basically, the committed people on both sides, theist and athiests, are making a statement of religion in that we don't know the facts on God. Positive assertions on both sides then is a religious position to take. It's a matter of faith that one is right on these things.

Those people who simply accept that we don't know and reason from there, are not making religious statements and thus are simply rational.

Interesting stuff!

To sum up, I think the message is in poor form!

Fuck Bill O'Reilly. He's an insecure little pussy. Apparently he does not understand our Constitutional First Amendment, and also does not understand that if you allow one, you must allow all. That's why it's better to just allow none.

Jerks like O'Reilly are only happy when it's their message and no one else's because they are insecure in their beliefs.

The Christmas thing is just something for O'Reilly to demogog, not unlike the Republicans scaring us with the threat of terrorism. They put this scene in a public place, they have to allow another opinion. However, people like Broadway, Herb and others who have come here think anyone who disagrees with them should have a bible shoved in their mouths. Merry Christmas.

Did you see Toby Keith's War on Christmas spoof on the "Colbert Christmas Special"?

Edit - Check out the Willie Nelson song on the same page.

O'Reilly has already declared war on Colbert and the Willie's "Little Dealer Boy"... one of the funniest Xmas tunes ever, and a brilliant spoof on the David Bowie/Bing Crosby "Little Drummer"!

And a whole lot of humor and blog sites were terrified (as far back as summer when the show was in production) that "two steps to the extreme right Toby" would ruin the Colbert Xmas. But the Keith tune is wickedly funny, and Keith spoofs himself and his image perfectly.

I will leave it to others to discuss John Legend's "Nutmeg." I don't even have words for it.

"Peace on Earth."

The way that this is unfolding is bringing out the worst of both the theistic and atheistic points of view. I'm scratching my head on whether what is being heard borders on "hate speech" or whether it the legitimate and accurate presentation of these points of view. On the one hand, the message on the placard was intended to be in-your-face. This in turn, is bringing the "you're going to burn in Hell" crowd out of the woodwork. A few hours ago, I heard a clip on KEX with a pastor who said, "I believe in Jesus, and if you don't, you're going to be crispier than a Jimmy Dean sausage on Judgement Day." I wouldn't be surprised if the designers of the placard intended to get this kind of reaction. Although less fanatical, this is similar to what happened a few years ago with those political cartoons of Mohammed: angry believers behaved exactly as predicted by the cartoons.

>>Willie Nelson song

pretty blasphemous stuff if you ask me...but never was a Willie fan. The sign got stolen Thursday only to show up at a Seattle Country station during the Ichabod Caine show...story below.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/35634964.html

do you know why they are having trouble with a national nativity display in washington, d.c. they looked all over the town and had a hard time finding three wisemen and a vergin. in d.c.

Don't know about a virgin, but the wise men are in Chicago.
They'll be in DC January 20.

Edit:
Broadway,
How, exactly, does Willie Nelson's song qualify as "blasphemous"?

There is not now nor will there ever be wise men (or women, just to be fair) in DC.

Just crooks.

Everything's relative.

The Willie Nelson song reminded me that there are some scholars who believe that a "kaneh bosm" annointing oil that appears in some biblical text was made from extracts of the cannabis plant. I don't see the idea of marijuana use in Biblical times being that far-fetched.

Earl Blumenauer, Ron Wyden and Peter DeFazio are just 3 of many wise men in DC. The joke is on those who generalize.

The REAL idiots are the 55 million people who voted for Bush in 2004, some of whom are posting in this thread, eh? Point the finger where it belongs folks. People don't get to DC without your help.

Here are the lyrics to the Willie Nelson/Stephen Colbert tune.... which should allow Broadway (take 4 giant steps to the right) to explain which part of it is "blasphemy."


Willie: I have no money in my coffer
No gold or silver do I bring
Nor have I precious jewels to offer
To celebrate the new born king
Yet do not spurn my gift completely
Oh ye three wise men please demur
Behold a plant that smokes more sweetly
Than either Frankincense or Myrrh
And like the child born in this manger
This herb is mild yet it is strong
And it brings peace to friend and stranger
Good will to men lies in this bong

Willie: And now my wonder weed is flaring
Stephen: Are you high?
Willie: Looked like that special star above
Stephen: Can it be?
Willie: Pass it around in endless sharing
Stephen: On Christmas day
Willie: And let not mankind Bogart love
Stephen: You'd smoke my tree

Willie: And the wise men started toking
And ye the bud was kind
It was salvation they were smoking
And it's forgiveness blew their mind

Willie: And still that wonder weed is flaring
Stephen: Are you high?
Willie: Looked like that was once above
Stephen: You're so high
Willie: Pass it around in endless sharing
Stephen: Dude, man, dude
Willie: And let not mankind Bogart love
Stephen: You're really high, I'm going to tell your Savior

Willie: And let not mankind Bogart love

The whole piece...glaring...

>>It was salvation they were smoking
And it's forgiveness blew their mind

Their god is weed. This is a total outrage that the true spirit of Christmas has been reduced to this level.

At least there's proof weed exists.

Rightway must've missed Fox "News" on Wednesday:

Huge Stash of Marijuana Found in Ancient Tomb

Duuuuuude! The world's oldest stash of marijuana has been found in far western China, according to an article in the Journal of Experimental Botany.

An ancient Caucasian people, probably the Indo-European-speaking Yuezhi whose fair-haired mummies keep turning up in Xinjiang province, seem to have buried one of their shamans with a whopping 789 grams of high-potency pot 2,700 years ago.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,460425,00.html

LOL @ Vitalogy!

The truth is out there...

Broadway -- you are both confused and a complete idiot. The song suggests that weed is a path to salvation and forgiveness... not a god in and of itself. It acknowledges the babe as "the newborn King" in the first verse.

And you might want to rethink "total outrage"...

Christians ethnically cleansing villages of Muslims, including raping all the women so that they will be outcasts among their own religion is a total outrage...

Christians forcing all the Muslims and Jews in their nation to leave the country, convert or die is a total outrage...

A "christian" nation hiding a fatal unless treated diagnosis from hundreds of African Americans so that that government can study the long term effects of no treatment is a total outrage...

"Let not mankind bogart love" is holiday humor.
(And if you had checked out the video, you would have noticed that only the cow and the ass are smoking!) Guess which one is you.

I think a whole lot of shamen would argue exactly that position. Altered states of mind can prove to be therapeutic when done with that purpose in mind.

...of course, a good album and some munchies is a known solid stress reliever in a pinch too. No transcendentalism required!

Seems to me, some study to compare and contrast religion in more forms would eliminate, most, if not all of this conversation.

In any case, it is sure as hell not blasphemy, unless you want to take the fascist position and declare all forms of worship, but your own invalid Broadway.

>>holiday humor

Oh...that's what you call it...unprecedented during modern Holiday times.

>>Christians ethnically cleansing villages of Muslims, including raping all the women so that they will be outcasts among their own religion is a total outrage... Christians forcing all the Muslims and Jews in their nation to leave the country, convert or die is a total outrage...
Christians forcing all the Muslims and Jews in their nation to leave the country, convert or die is a total outrage...

That was then...this is now...Christians weekly serve a meal in my city downtown under a bridge to the homeless community where we have several African-American friends...plus I think your history has been re-written.

Yeah, and they spend millions trying to deny others the same rights they have too.

Cuts both ways man.

Depends on which Christians doesn't it?

That happened now, not then.

My point being your house isn't really all that clean --even in "modern times".

Now, that is true for most, and is the reason to not have the holier than thou outrage. Looks bad all things considered.

I found the song clever. Didn't bother me bit. Then again I have an irreverence side to me anyway.

People have been treating people poorly for centuries not just Christians treating people badly. Rawanda and Darfur come to mind.

However because of certain sects of Christianity they have become easy targets.

This past weekend at church we were discussing how Christianity is seen throughout the world these days. A woman in our group told us of some friends she knows that travel quite a bit overseas. They are often asked what their belief system is and instead of answering "we're Christians" they respond by saying "Followers of Jesus." I like that myself.

"...serve a meal in my city downtown under a bridge to the homeless community where we have several African-American friends."

That's mighty white of you, B'way. So you have "several" black friends? Are they customers or your fellow church members? Do you invite them into your home?

Frankly, I'm a wee bit tired of reading about your meal service. You love to bring it up. Sometimes I think you pat yourself on the back a bit too much. Do you do it EVERY week? While admiral of you to volunteer to do something, anything, does it provide any measurable life changes to your customers? Do they have to listen to a sermon or religious issiues, or is it just a meal?

I'd bet everyone here donates time and/or money, but you don't hear (m)any of us bringing it up, unless it's pertinent to the topic.

I guess what I'm saying is that "Giving" is not exclusively a "Christian" endeavor, and we don't earn "better than thou" points for doing so.

P.S. Broadway, you ARE aware that the points TDanner made above ARE not in the past, right? Right?

Chris, I think that's probably a smart move today. At least then, they avoid a lot of potentially nasty issues, and get to meet 'n greet other people, share faith, etc...

Absolutely true about people treating people poorly. That's a big part of my point. At the end of the day, we are all members of the group "people". Young people, old people, black people, male people, female people, just freaking people. Some of us have lots of stuff, some of us have nothing. Some are smart, others are not so smart, some have natural gifts, others don't.

Just people. As people, we all need the same kinds of people things. There are no differences, and I am floored at the number of things we construct to put up those differences, mostly because we fear our own selves somehow.

No membership in any sect, club, fellowship, nor subscription to any creed, mantra, or any other thing differentiates us from this group of people.

So then, when people treat other people poorly, as PEOPLE, we really should be PISSED OFF PEOPLE, and put the screws to the clowns trying this stuff, instead of playing holier than thou, not my fault, it's OTHER people doing it, NOT ME, self-help games, largely constructed to help people disassociate themselves from the other people some how.

I gotta admit, this one just chaps my ass big. Hard to get around it. Hate it actually.

The one that tops it for me:

"Good People" What the hell is that? At least "My kind of people" is honest! Putting a value judgment on people just sucks, particularly in this context.

Hey Broadway, maybe you should reconsider and try Hindu. That way you can score points you can use to feel better about yourself. I've got a spare Karma bucket I can loan you. It's got some good karma in it too. Hasn't served me all that well in recent times, maybe you will have better luck with it! LOL!!!

Tell me, are they friends because they need you, or because you need them? (safety tip: we need each other, k?)

Hate to break it to you, but lots of people go and help other people. Here's the thing:

Why talk it up?

If you have something to prove, then you have a problem you are hiding.

If you don't have something to prove, then there is no reason to bring it up in these conversations, is there?

Do you need to be recognized for that somehow? Maybe it's a lot of work, and that deserves some reward, as opposed to doing it because it matters?

So, what is it? Tell us. Maybe we can help!

>>points TDanner made above ARE not in the past

Have not read anything in the news. You would think that with all the "bad press" Christians are getting...why would they want more. I'm just trying to practice my faith "unto the least of these"...my Christianity helping my neighbor not "ethnically cleansing villages of Muslims" for which I find no press.

You can't figure out which ""christian" nation (is) hiding a fatal unless treated diagnosis from hundreds of African Americans so that that government can study the long term effects of no treatment"...

What "NEWS" are you reading, exactly?
Get a clue, you boob!

Here's the latest twist from Olympia.

---Church wants to post "Santa Claus will take you to Hell" at Capitol---

“You’d better watch out, get ready to cry, You’d better go hide, I’m telling you why ‘cuz Santa Claus will take you to hell. He is your favorite idol, you worship at his feet, but when you stand before your God He won’t help you take the heat. So get this fact straight: you’re feeling God’s hate, Santa’s to blame for the economy’s fate, Santa Claus will take you to hell.”

Read the entire article in the Olympian:

http://www.theolympian.com/377/story/694825.html

This is getting downright childish.

"you’re feeling God’s hate"

What a nice sentiment.
Makes me want to go to their Church.

>>hiding a fatal unless treated diagnosis

know this is off topic but would like to find any press...give us a link please...

>>you’re feeling God’s hate

and Merry Christmas to you to!

Actually, I like that new Santa Claus ditty! So, it is Santa's fault that the economy is in a shambles? I guess that you learn something new every day! Thank you, Rev. Phelps!!

Broadway... it was kind of like in all the history books.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Study_of_Untreated_Syphilis_in_the_Negro_M ale

And happy holidays and a merry Xmas to you too.

>>Study of Untreated Syphilis

Sorry I was not a part to the US Dept of Health in the 1920's to blow the whistle. Does not the church do better in helping the needy over government? It should...that's its calling.
Just went to 2 Christmas music/drama events this weekend...in the Spirit of Christmas!

Just went to 2 Christmas music/drama events this weekend...in the Spirit of Christmas!

If the weather doesn't go down the tubes tonight come to the 36th annual Singing Christmas Tree at the Vancouver First Church of God, 3300 NE 78th St in Vancouver.

Tomorrows performances are at 10:00 AM, 3:00 PM and 7:00 PM.

If you do come to one of the shows, stop by the sound booth in the balcony and say hi! (I'm the fat one with the beard. And no, I'm not Santa Claus!!!)

Skybill: Will there be "Placards" displayed?

Well sort of!

There will be 12 very weirdly dressed folks holding "placards" that represent the 12 days of Christmas in the sing-a-long!

This Just in from Olympia. They're denying Mrs. merkin and me, our HOLIDAY! NO "FESTIVUS POLE" WILL BE DISPLAYED!!! This is an OUTRAGE!! Our religious beliefs are being trampled upon. The Evergreen State STINKS!! This from The Seattle Times:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008506935_apwacapitolholidaydis plays1stldwritethru.html

Chris_Taylor said he'd celebrate Christmas anytime of the year...

Was watching Olbermann the other night and his "Best Person in the World" was a British astrophysicist who calculated the night sky for all days from something like 10 BC to 10 AD. The only date that would have had an astronomical event like the Star of Bethlehem was....

June 17, 2BC... huh... interesting. It was the conjunction of Venus and Jupiter. *insert shrug here*

conjunction of Venus and Jupiter

There was one two weeks ago. Who got born? (or rose?)

>>Who got born?

One Christ Child is all we need...good grief...he's enough controversy plus He got the job done!