http://www.saveoureconomy.com/

Country is on a stretcher in the emergency room....fighting for its last breath. Obamas new deal 2 plan is great ...but will take a year or more to see hammers swinging on bridges. This plan takes effect in 30 days. The results would be 10X fold in return to the govt tax fund and put TAX PAYERS NOT THE GANGSTERS back on their feet again. Please read this plan and contact your elected officials in DC. Ron Wyden is seriously looking at this plan. Sen Dick Durbin has taken the plan for review. There is traction on this.

Yeah well. I already lost my home. Does me NO good at all.

Since I'm about voting my self-interest (as we all should be), I'm nowhere near supporting this.

I'm about addressing WHY I lost my home, not HOW to put the problem off for a while, hoping the status quo gets stable again.

Treating the symptom doesn't do us any good. We need systemic solutions to this crap, and that means going back to Reagan, thinking through that change of direction and economic policy, realizing it's shit, and building something that works.

No patchwork. Just fix it, then we are all better off for the longer term.

All I see here, in this plan, is a plea for some people to be able to screw other people. The implications of this plan are HUGE! If you think we have credit problems now, just wait for that sucker to kick in! NOTHING will move at the banks, because they have NO incentive to make loans, as there is no payoff.

Besides, throwing money into the system just isn't the fix. Doesn't matter where the money comes from, because it's all our money in the end.

The real fix is to lower risk on ordinary people, and invest in projects that require work to realize.

We have the trouble we do, because we outsourced our good paying jobs. The result of that is an increasing reliance on credit as we lived on wealth we didn't have.

For me personally, I didn't actually do this. I scaled back repeatedly, and had little to no credit for a long time. Didn't need it. I saved, lived small, you name it.

I am also gainfully employed too. I don't make small amounts of money. (had to keep jumping ahead of the outsourcing though, and that was a bitch)

Risk nailed me. Got me three ways:

1. Health care. That 60K initial trip to the emergency room hammered things home

2. Increased indirect risk through de-regulation. You see, we all get to share in the spoils of speculation. The most common form is in the form of energy costs. There are many others though.

3. Currency devaluation. This is the biggest tax of all, and it hits EVERYBODY. Got a nest egg? Ever check what it's buying power is today, vs the pre-Bush years. If you are weak, don't check. You won't like what you see. (It's maybe half guys! Suck it up!)

National policy will need to happen to address #1. That's a single pay system, with optional luxery insurance for those willing and able to pay for it.

Number two is a return to CONSERVATIVE economic policies that keep our real value safe and seperated from the POTENTIAL value more risky investment devices present. This neo-conservative policy where it's all mixed together screwed EVERYBODY.

Number three is all about our ability to build wealth. Wonder why wage pressure is down? Well, we don't do anything worth paying for? Duh!!!

So, if we either innovate some new industry that can pay well and build wealth, or use tarrifs and such to make production here worth a living wage, we can then build wealth here that will prop up our dollar.

When the Petrodollar was cracked, we lost that "must trade" status globally, triggering a revaluation of the dollar, and that's still going on.

If we don't make shit, (and we don't), just what do people holding dollars buy with them? That's right kids! They buy us!

Look around at all the forgin owned companies and lands, and that's what outsourcing brought us.

There is no sexy handout for this. We've got to turn the page on some very destructive policies and ideologies, or we will simply be moving the problem around, squabbling over who gets the relief this time as opposed to next time.

I'm gonna go make some phone calls and letters AGAINST this shit, and suggest you do the same.

BTW: Had I not lost it, due to risk, I still wouldn't go for this. Deferring serious problems isn't the answer.

The real answer is being able to PAY that mortgage, giving them their return and us ours, through home ownership. Losing it, and looking at why has been educational.

I can see a shell game for what it is now, a lot easier than I could before.

Coupla more things:

NO Landlord is gonna participate in this. I wouldn't do it? Would you? Thought so.

Can somebody explain to me how this plan will deal with our mortgage backed high risk securities problem? We've got people with no money, into loans. We've seen that even a small failure triggers big impacts on us, because those loans are leveraged too many times and in too many places.

(go look up derivatives and credit swaps and get back to me)

Now then. If ALL those loans suddenly don't perform (and they won't delivering interest only for a year), they ALL are gonna get devalued! That then will plunge the dollar into a third world currency status, making it worthless. $100 for a loaf of bread?

Believe it, if this crap gets through.

Money itself is worthless! (how did we get to believing otherwise?) It's only a vehicle for value transfer, not VALUE itself! That's been true ever since we decoupled money from gold and such.

There is a reason it's printed on paper, and can move through computers! That's the reason.

So then, if suddenly there is a ton of money everywhere (and there would be with this), it's worth drops as everybody knows if the amount of money changes without the value backing it also changing, then each dollar presents as a smaller fraction of that value, and thus it's worth is diminished accordingly.

This is absolutely what will happen with a plan like this.

Hell, why not just print up a few trillion and mail everybody a check? That's the shell game right there.

See it now?

I have some skepticism over a "1 year mortgage holiday" being the centerpiece of this plan. Holiday or not, distressed homeowners have to bite the bullet and sell their homes, even if it means having to take a loss. All that I could see this plan doing for such a person is postponing the unaffordable payments.

As I am not a financial expert, I would at least like to know who drafted this plan and what economists, bankers, etc. were consulted. I found testimonials on the website but no information about the authors. My time spent in the Libertarian Party taught me that it is not that hard to get a group of people together to write up a proposal that looks authoritative and complete to a causal observer. This in no way guarantees that the proposal even has a chance of achieving the intended goals, if implemented.

Here is a humorous example of such a plan from within the Libertarian Party of Oregon: A reform faction created an alternative constitution for the party. The new constitution would have called for eliminating the party's existing bylaws and starting a process for creating an entirely new set of bylaws. The authors of this new constitution didn't consider that doing this would put the party's status as a legally recognized political party in jeopardy because the Oregon Elections Division requires that all political parties have bylaws on file.

That's pretty funny. They didn't think that through did they?

Of course, they could just have two bylaws and comply...

1. There are bylaws.

2. see?

Done!

Exactly--had the new constitution come with a replacement set of bylaws, everything would have been kosher.

.....sell their homes, even if it means having to take a loss......

Oh, the owner takes the loss, but the bank avoids it. they own the property, derive no income from it, but is sits on their books at the foreclosed value. Much of the problem is that the homes foreclosed have no equity. you don't see people 20 years into a first mortgage losing their home. You do see people who bought at the top, or refi-ed and maxed out are the ones walking away.

An example is in the double digit increases in home values, and banks that were lending up to 125% of valuation. The problem is the actual (TRUE) value of the house was worth less than the prices realized, and as prices went up, fewer people could afford the house without "CREATIVE FINANCING". So now in some areas the 50k home went up to 295k and the last buyer has a 295k mortgage but the market value dropped to 225K. Now with the slowdown, credit crunch and job uncertainty. The buyers have dried up. So, even if the owner defaults, the bank won't want to take the loss either, and they sit on the home. So what is the REAL VALUE of said house? Of course what someone will pay, but is it 225k? 200k? 100k? Whatever the true value, the bank takes a huge hit at some point, or they turn it over to a property management firm and rent it so they can show some ROI.

I bought my Tacoma home in 1980 for 32,000 and sold it in 1999 in three days for 93,900 after a bidding war. (yes, I thought they paid too much but compared to similar homes available, mine was the nicest hence the line of buyers and quick sale) A year ago it was on the market at 155,000 with no takers. So, what is the true value based on location, market conditions, QOL factors. Maybe to someone, 125 would be a steal. for what and where it is, (a two bedroom 1000 sq ft starter home) with so many people making lower wages and the tighter credit markets, a return to sane lending practices: a "TRUE MV" for this home should be 60-75K, Especially if there is a glut of starter homes available, and a lack of young first time buyers, or downsizers who can't sell their larger homes.

SAME with automobiles, many people have more than two, the lots are stuffed with new AND used, Shouldn't an 8 year old car with 100k miles on it sell for a couple hundred dollars?

Did E-Z credit/zero down/ bad credit/no credit no problem/ want it now/ we finance anyone, skew the value of everything? Will the retailers of big ticket items take the loss and revalue their product to meet the market. Obviously the Buy now Pay later mind set has been shaken if not shattered.

One final thought, When the CEO of a company says he will take a salary of 1 dollar a year, doesn't that violate minimum wage laws? If not, then why can't K*** bring in a PT/fill in guy for 4 dollars an hour if he agrees to work for that?
I see deflation a real possibility......Moreso than the printing of million dollar bills that won't buy a loaf of bread....




had some time to kill and popped in on the board.

Best wishes to all y'all for a great holiday season and upcoming New year.......

What is Stoner's connection with this site? It looks like a Portland production, very few hits, and Stoner is the headliner in "comments" along with everyone in Portland named Barb.

Probably he supports it, and is part of a grassroots effort to move the plan along.

Nothing wrong with that

I'm not on board with this plan.

KSKD cites examples of why this plan sucks. It doesn't help people who've lost their homes due to matters out of their control.

While some kind of federal assistance mortgage-wise could work, I don't want it going to people like the retired couple profiled in The Oregonian's article last week. This couple own a house in Hazel Dell (apparently not paid for) and borrowed more money to buy a house in Happy Valley for the purpose of flipping it.

Now that their Happy Valley house is severely upsidedown, not to mention unoccupied, they're at risk of losing all their retirement funds unless they walk away from the HV house they wanted to flip.

I say tough cookies to that.

Its one thing to assist people who have an upside down mortgage but bought the house in good faith as far as affordability goes, but people like the Hazel Dell couple, or folks who couldn't or barely qualfied but used a balloon mortgage or other temporary low interest scheme to get in, tough cookies.

Perhaps the banks can swap titles with stressed upside down mortgages holders -- trade down to a smaller house, with a lower mortgage payment -- but the value on that is upside down too.

Take a moment and read this plan. Whats the alternative? Hundreds of thousands homes returned to lenders, high crime in every town, banks closing, commerce coming to a raging halt,
soup lines, no jobs at all. You think this was a tough 4th quarter?
Just wait for 1st quarter. This is going to come at us like the Katrina storm. It will be too late. Bankos are up 111% in Oregon right now.
(reported yesterday in Oregoinan). Time for Americans to get a breather and catch up. This would grease the economic wheels RIGHT NOW.

Yeah Stoner. That's how it's gonna be.

When governments screw up, it comes home hard. Now you know what happens when too many people vote Republican.

I read the whole thing, and it's not gonna work. It feels really good to imagine having a lot of money for a while until things get sorted out. I'm with you there, but...

If there suddenly is a lot of money, without that money being backed by value, then the value of any individual portion of the money will drop.

So then, all kinds of ugly consequences! Take the example of the landlord. In my case, that's my brother in law. If this thing goes, then inflation follows quickly in a month or two.

When the cost of goods goes way up, suddenly that savings he sees, in terms of not having to pay a mortgage doesn't play out well. His buying power per dollar drops, meaning he has no incentive to pass along the savings to me!

(and if I were him, I wouldn't do it either, so it's not a mean thing, just reality)

So then, as a renter, I lose a ton of buying power, WITH NO COMPENSATION in income. I get screwed huge. Factor that to everybody living in apartments, renting houses and such, and it's just really ugly.

There's your high crime, banks closing, commerce coming to a raging halt and everything else right there.

The people that wrote this up didn't think the whole picture through. On that basis, I can't support it, and I strongly recommend others don't either.

For what it's worth, I've been detailing why and how this is a problem for YEARS here. We were living on credit nationally. We were consuming more than we produced, and we sold off everything, or leveraged everything to deny the realities of that.

So then, here we are!

Maybe 1 out of 100 people did what I did, and that's scale back. The rest just went with it, and now are looking to really hurt.

Truth is, we can avoid this by doing a few things, in addition to those big picture things I posted up thread.

People can scale back, and are gonna be forced to scale back. By way of example, my life nut costs maybe half, almost a third of what it used to cost! Remember the big gas crunch! Didn't really impact me all that much, because of that.

Didn't like it, but wasn't gonna go broke because of it.

More people need to consider this.

And on the homes. Sure, a lot of them are gonna go back to lenders. Same for commercial properties too. Just wait for that middle of next year!

There are people with buying power to pick those homes up, and the banks are gonna make deals because they know better not to.

Would have been nice for the banks to make deals before losing the homes, but what's done is done.

(for me, I'm glad they did what they did because I'm way better off now, not needing anywhere near the monthly nut I once did.)

If these things go the way they did for me, what ends up being lost is the profit from the loan. And the equity in the home for me. Truth is, that equity was funny money, and we've got to just take the loss on that and find out where we really are in terms of value.

A whole lot of people are gonna be upset to find the value they think they have isn't really there!

(thank Republicans for that on your way to re-evaluating what your retirement is gonna look like)

The home, in my case, sold for about the principle on the loan, and the terms are far better for the new occupant. If that's true more often than not, it simply means big losses for the big players, and some work to be done for the smaller ones.

That's not the end of the world you know.

From there, the public works and tech investments to build wealth here will start to balance the equation meaning our currency will stablize and meaning we can start to pay down that big debt.

Lean times for a while. And that's for everybody!

Better start shifting gears right now. The sooner, the better. People are gonna have to get after it and start working hard to pay back that lifestyle for the last 20 years or so, plus the Iraq war.

Another thing that can be done is to buy local where ever you can. Every last dollar that leaves the nation is a dollar we could use to support ourselves and build wealth.

And that's another element of this plan that was not thought through. Say we get the money, and say inflation doesn't happen. (that's a pipe dream, but let's entertain it)

So then, people buy lots of stuff right? Where do those dollars go?

Overseas man!

Does that help us? No it does not. What it ends up being is one last mega squeeze on us to just drain every last dollar out, leaving us with an even bigger problem when it's all done.

This is what outsourcing has done to us.

The sooner we grok that, the sooner we get to work fixing that and the sooner then we can return to the lifestyle we are used to living.

Deny it, and the problem just gets bigger along with the solution.

...and if you are holding real-estate right now, that's gonna suck huge, unless you have seriously good equity.

Oh, think about that too! Say you are holding real-estate and have a lot of renters. When the free money push happens, along with the inflation, and suddenly they can't afford to make their rent?

What happens to that house of cards, if you don't have major league equity in the homes?

*Boom*, just like the one my uncle experienced in the 70's. He went from six figures per year to leaving in a trailer with all the stuff the court didn't know about.

Took him 10 years to dig out of that.

Finally, it's better to just bite it and find out where your buying power really is.

From there, you live lean, ride it out, save if you can, then build when it's all over.

That's exactly what I'm doing, and know what? It just doesn't suck that bad. I'm very happy it happened at 40 instead of 60. There is plenty of time to build up, once this passes.

So then, the quicker it passes, the quicker we get onto building wealth again, and the more prosperous we all will be.

The losses have ALREADY occured. This is just all about fighting over who will shoulder them. Frankly, I've surrendered my bit. I'm not inclined to support ANYTHING that makes be surrender more, unless I see others doing the same.

This plan restructures things so that the haves keep it, and the have nots (however they got there) get it the worst.

No thanks. Every one of us did our part to do the work to build it up. Every one of us is gonna suck it up and share in the losses and the burden we now bear to build it up again.

While you are sucking huge, remember what happens when too many people vote Republican.

Ask Ron Wyden what he thinks of this plan to dig us out.

A good friend of mine just made me aware that you have expressed some support of the economic plan detailed at http://www.saveoureconomy.com

1. Can you clarify your position on this plan?

2. How does this plan prevent inflation that is the expected result from there being a lot of extra dollars present, without those dollars being backed by wealth generation, or value?

3. What measures would be taken to prevent abuse. ie: those able to pay, but choose not to?

4. How does making so many dollars available help us deal with the systemic problems of production in this nation?

Best regards to you and yours this holiday season!

Doug Dingus

[sent to Wyden's office this morning]

Stoner, I am quite happy to be wrong about something like that. Let's hope for a quick response!

The question is, who's going to make the mortgage payments to the lender while the mortgagor gets a break?

Personally, I'd rather see the government send each tax paying citizen with AGI under $250K $25,000 cash to do what they want with it.

PLEASE READ THE PLAN www.saveoureconomy.com
the feds pay only the simple interest to the lenders. This would come to 6 billion a month.
If we wait and let this country fall into a depression, it will be 10X more costly. The key is ...the money you would pay monthly is yours.
The 30 yr mortgage you have converts to a 31.
This would open up the spending markets, as well as having a 4% 30 yr FIXED rate for homes available. We need a BOLD-QUICK plan to turn this country back on. We are slipping. The news daily is just too amazing.

Read it.

The core problem is a ton of money being made avaliable that isn't backed by anything. That will dilute the dollar, causing a lot of inflation, which will hammer the worst off the most, and do significant damage up the chain.

Let's see what Wyden has to say about that issue. Without some answer as to what backs the dollars, it's a pipe dream!

Hey guys, Mark Hemstreet & Dave Rogoway & will be on The Lars Larson National Show tonight at 10pm on KXL. They will discuss this topic.

I wonder if Dave and Lars will be dipping into the tag bowl?

I think a mortgage interest rate CUT across the board for everybody until the economy gets going again would be the proper way to do this. Those who mishandled their spending get help, NOT a free ride, while prudent money handlers get extra cash they can spend on things to boost the economy.

How's that?

I'm not sure those two have any interest other than saving their ass.

And that's not a slam. Not at all.

My point being, the core problem is that we let people essentially send away our ability to make money, let them borrow, speculate and over leverage.

There just isn't as much money as anyone is used to.

The losses have already happened. The question is who gets hammered the most! IMHO, the losses need to come from the top, not ordinary people.

That's where the problem is essentially. They are the ones that sold our future for that better quarterly profit now. So, that was a bad call.

PAY IT FUCKING BACK THEN.

Public works will build wealth. Ordinary people will make living wages, they will spend and things will go right.

Those who really got into this crazy stuff are gonna absolutely have to lose. No risk, no reward right?

Yeah, thought so.

Most of the ideas surrounding short term fixes, just put off the problem, or ignore the fact that more money does not equal more value, and that translates into inflation, screwing us huge. In fact, in that scenario, the worse off you are, the worse inflation hits.

And that's what I asked Wyden. If we do things backed by value, I've got no problem with it. Printing more money, isn't doing that, and that's all I see here, unless we just want to put one last push on the national credit card, leaving a bigger mess for the next administration to clean up.

No thanks to that. We've had enough conservative economics hammering us into the ground.

I am laughing my ASS off!

Tuned in for the last 40 minutes or so.

Pussy whipped conservatives, looking for ANYTHING to get them out of their own mess! This is absolutely disgusting. I would be ashamed to even be associated with this pipe dream.

Look.

You free market asses need to wake the fuck up and understand just what that has meant for the last 30 years. Truth is, we've been living on stored value, as in all the things we worked hard to build up prior to Reagan, and credit to compensate for the slow, but steady outsourcing of our national GDP.

Used to be, this nation ran itself, and it chose to import, but also made damn sure those imports didn't fuck our own economy up. That was government working hard to protect the interests of the people.

That was low risk too. CONSERVATIVE, if I may!

(and I think I will)

Opening up our consumer market to these foreign competetors destroyed industry after industry until only the last, biggest and nationally protected were left.

70 percent of that GDP that I heard those morons bitching about used to be MADE IN THE U S of A. Right here, paying well too.

Now that it's done, and we've sold our future, less than 30 percent of that GDP is manufacturing now.

Guess what?

If you don't pull your weight globally, you go broke, and that's where we are.

I hear Lars asking the question, "Do you mind if we put 60 billion a month on the tab, for a coupla years?". And these whiners, thinking they can support the free market while they are doing well, only to then push it off onto the American people when they get fucked by it, are crying into the radio, "Please! Anything! We, the people need the money!"

Fuck yes they need the money, and so does everybody else.

Remember what happens when too many people vote Republican people. This is what happens.

Now, when times get tough, you nut up like a man and live lean. That's what I did. All I hear is a bunch of people not wanting to do that. They want one last fix on the credit card, hoping it will all just go away.

Well, if we charge up that assload, we won't be able to invest in the kinds of things that build wealth here. The kinds of things made in the USA, that pay those that live in the USA, and that build the value of the USA.

(continued --I am absolutely disgusted)

I hear it's tough in retail right now. People are loading up on food, not luxury goods. Tough goddammed titty. That's exactly what happens when we have a national policy of living on our future when the tab runs out.

Sure, we are gonna see some stores close. God, I wouldn't want to be selling jewelry right now. Seriously. That's the last thing on my mind this year.

Want to know what Xmas is really like, for those living in the real world, or those lucky enough to have not had this mess really hit them yet?

We are buying food this year. We are buying small gifts, and traveling instead to spend time in family.

I buy tools, items goods and services that build my value, that I can leverage, so that I can do as much on my own as possible so that every dollar counts, because the dollar isn't gonna count for much.

Go watch the Waltons for a dose of what kinds of things people need to be doing!

(and I didn't think I would ever write that)

This is exactly what I said it was. It's nothing more than a big ass handout to all the mega-conservative wanna-be types that drank the kool-aid, are gonna get hosed, with the rest of us, jealous that they too don't have access to the bucket of money that our lame ass government handed to Paulson.

Suck it up, get to work, and start figuring out how to add real value, and live within your means, just like any conservative minded American would.

Asking for the grandest of handouts like this, without any idea of how it will actually do anything to bring the nation up, is just gross. It's greedy, short sighted, ignorant, and completely not-conservative in any way.

You know, I've been called a commie, liberal, and god knows what else here and elsewhere.

Guess what?

I sucked it up, I know a lot of people who are sucking it up, and who know the way out of this is to make investments in the kinds of things that build real value, and that will make the GDP solid again, not virtual funny money shit, that just gets us in deeper the farther we go with it.

You all need to do the same.

If you are thinking of backing this plan, you need to take a seriously hard look at who you really are! Are you really conservative? Are you really for free markets and all that comes with them?

Well then, start innovating your ass off because we just handed it all to our national neighbors, without making damn sure we had our own ass covered.

...or.

We can go back to letting government work for us again. Yeah, New Deal style, just like the last time Republicans fucked us.

If you are gonna ask for the money, you are not a real free-market type. In a free market, you take your losses AND YOUR GAINS.

Seems to me, free markets are only for when the money is flowing, not when it's sucking.

Welcome to the Lars Larson show, where we've got "deer in the headlights" conservatives finding out for the first time in their lives just what they've been backing all these years and they are scared shitless of that free market that's gonna just shut them down cold.

Pussies.

Either step up, take the loss and go do the work in the private sector to dig us out, and that means serious R & D investment, paying solid wages, and thin margins while we buy back our future.

or...

Admit this was shit, step up and join the rest of us looking to escape these shitty neo-conservative, pro megacorporate policies, and figure out what the New Deal 2.0 is gonna look like.

While you are at it, think hard about just what risk means. I think you are getting some minor idea now. Scary huh?

Risk equals dollars. Take on too much risk, and you WILL ABSOLUTELY lose your dollars. Many have done so, more are going to.

I did, and I was more or less forced into that risk, by free market types insisting that it was good for me.

Had enough? I have.

So then, with the New Deal, we put into place national programs to cut the risk, so that small businesses can thrive, pay their people and not live so close to the edge as to make it impossible.

Single Pay health care would be a fantastic start. Healthy workers, not so worried about who's gonna die next week, produce more and cost less per year.

Distribute those risks over time, and you've got less overhead and that means fatter margins.

More people employed at a LIVING WAGE means more retail, and Dave --more Jewlery.

Just a thought.

This thing is sink our economy.com

I'll wait a bit to hear what Wyden thinks of this. One week tops.

Then I'm gonna start spreading the word. Real conservatives should be ashamed. I'm gonna make sure a fair number of them hear about this shit.

no hand outs..its a TIME OUT. Read a Wall St Journal and put your MAD magazines away.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/12/60minutes/main4666112.shtml

You, a conservative minded business man, are here asking me, the supposed liberal, to believe that this isn't somehow a hand out?

Don't you know the basics?

Let's review then:

It costs us to be here, period. Sleeping is a few cents per minute or something, and partying, sailing, etc... is a lot of dollars per minute. Working is some minimum dollars per minute to break even. (which is why we have minimum wage laws, BTW)

So then, a given society has a daily cost to maintain parity. That cost is the sum of all the work and energy and materials required to make it go. If that society does just enough, nobody profits, but it all runs ok. If it does more than it needs, wealth then is built and that can be aggregated so that some prosper more than others.

People work this way too. Live below your means, save and have money to build with. Live at your means and just exist. Live above your means and aquire debt.

Our society used to be one that produced way more than it needed. That superior wealth generation empowered us to win wars, build new technologies and enjoy a robust lifestyle.

With me so far?

We then took a bad turn and decided to open up our prosperous society to other markets, maybe producing more, maybe not. We exported our economy, WITHOUT DOING THE WORK TO REPLACE IT.

That's outsourcing and an increasing dependence on financial instruments instead of labor to sustain our lifestyle.

That's living above our means, and we've been either selling things off, or building debt to maintain parity, and while we've been doing that, the other nations, WE EMPOWERED to build up, DID!

So then, here we are today.

It follows that time equals money then. We can't afford to spend time here, unless we have money to do it with. Even just standing around costs something.

Money is an expression of value. It is not worth anything in and of itself. It is a note, not value itself. (and that is such an old history lesson, that's all I'm gonna say)

When we exchange a dollar, for a good or service, the idea is that dollar represents some value, and that value is labor, material goods, services, etc... This helps us actually trade without all the hard work.

I can give you a dollar, and you can go and buy a dollars worth of stuff for it. Easy cheezy, and a hell of a lot better than carrying gold around.

If we increase the number of available dollars, without also backing them with value in terms of wealth, then each dollar is worth less!

Wealth is labor and innovation over time, BTW.

Now, granting time to everybody costs something then! Nothing is free, not even standing around, right?

The cost of that time appears to be something like 80 billion a month for 12 months! That is how much work it takes to pay for that TIME OUT you are asking for, and somebody somewhere is gonna have to pay it.

That's a fucking handout.

There is no getting around this.

You could at least suck it up and admit this is a big ass handout. Lars did. Give the guy credit for that. At least he asked the damn question; namely, "How or who is gonna pay for this time?"

I have a few suggestions:

Instead of continuing to sell my future and yours, why don't we get those that profited from this mess to pay some of it back, so that we have a chance at a future.

So do this plan, but also raise the income tax on anything over half a million annually, to 90 percent.

I'll go for that, because it's not on the national tab then. I don't like handouts that devalue my future and my dollar for some silly gain today. Guess I'm a bit conservative about that.

Funny huh?

When times get tough, people have to suck it up, get to work, lay off the credit and pay the shit down, or we end up just making our competetors stronger, and that just digs us in deeper than we already are.

Frankly, I want something for Obama to work with, and draining the treasury at 80 billion a month, won't leave all that much. Fuck that.

So, it's a hand out. Time equals money. Ready to at least admit you are just asking for another round on the credit card, hoping the problem will just magically go away?

If this were your personal life, and you knew you were living above your means, wouldn't you either scale back, or work harder to build wealth? Most everybody I know would. Most every conservative I know would tell people to do this too.

I would do it, and am currently doing both! Life is a complete bitch in this economy. Why? Because we are leaking dollars faster than we create value to back them.

That's the fix. It isn't credit, it isn't anything but work, and living lean.

This is what the nation needs to do. That is what will save the economy.

Just to add some to that.

Let's say we've got somebody living above their means and they choose credit. They don't buy luxery items with it, but choose to invest it instead. They can build a business, with the hope of a greater return, or buy part of somebody elses business hoping they will profit in like kind.

So then, with all the foreign ownership of our companies and markets, where do you think those investment dollars go? That's right! Anywhere but here and here is where we need them.

That's why I suggested the very high income tax. We need NEW business that works here, builds wealth here and that contributes to the economy here.

Flooding people with cash, so they can go buy a bunch of shit from China, or sink it into a seriously over valued market scene isn't gonna build any wealth for us, and wealth is what we are short on.

Now then, say we go the business route. What do we buy with those dollars? Risk is what we buy, along with material goods and services.

And this is the other ugly side of the coin. We live in a very high risk society right now. We don't have national health care, insurance of all kinds is expensive and often does not pay off, and there are other things.

The key is this:

When we left the new deal, we started pushing risk onto people. This makes things easier for the haves, as their profit goes up AT OUR EXPENSE. It also limits new competition as high risk raises the barrier to entry for new business!

So they just don't start them, or if they do they fail, or get bought out by the big players, looking to just stay big players while not really adding any value.

Leeches. That's what most of them are.

This handout you are supporting --and hey, I don't mind people getting after it and supporting what they feel strongly about, don't get me wrong there It's good to see! Honestly! But you gotta support it, and so far there isn't any real support for the ugly questions.

And that's my point here.

This handout you are supporting doesn't include any serious plan to make that investment pay off. That's my beef!

Where is the payoff nationally? How do we see that value returned to us in the form of a stronger GDP, so as a society, as a nation, we are living at or above parity?

Answer that, and you've got my support. Any answer that targets that, and isn't some boondoggle, has my support, because that is what needs to happen.

One liner me all you want. That's the ugly question that's not being discussed in the room here.

Answer it, or show me somebody who can.

We can't look back now. Every sign is right in our faces that a great depression is near. Obamas plan is terrific and most Americans support it. However, with the events rushing at us at this rapid pace, we do not have much more time left to salvage a depression.
Once this country falls, it will be too late. The plan is WIDE and VAST that includes corp loans, apartments etc. Even if they (congress) looked at PRIMARY HOMES ONLY it would start up this economy in thirty days with results. The amount of homes going back to banks will make this years news look slim, un-employment is growing with numbers that look like mis-prints,
our dollar is falling due to dropping the rate to ZERO. What does that tell you? Main Street merchants will be going under in the MILLIONS not THOUSANDS. This plan is very costly, but it gets an INSTANT return into the economy and the govt will finally get some tax base back as well. You want to talk about hand outs?
We just saw 800 billion with about half spent and the experts have no clue where the money is. Everyone is hurting out there.
Why not allow a time out to let America get legs again.

Because it costs 80 billion a month!

or

We have to print up a batch of extra money, and that devalues it.

That either denies us the money we need to build new business and fix the systemic problems

, or

It means we get a break on our monthly nut, only to see the costs of goods go way up!

Looking back is how we understand what our actions may cause.

If we can see results in a month, then we can see serious inflation in a month. That or serious debt that drains our future is what will happen.

This is a bad idea. Show me somebody that says it's a good idea. I want to hear why this is a good idea, and hearing that it would be great to suddenly have a lot more money, isn't hearing it's a good idea.

A depression society will cost 5X the amount.
This program allows consumers to start saving, paying off debt, spending, college, charity...THEIR CHOICE. The next great depression
is here folks. REALITY CHECK.

Without a clear understanding of how this give away, hand out, feel good plan will fix our problem of not making as much as we currently spend, doing this is like charging your ass off, then going into recession in more debt than would be there otherwise.

Again, with the inflation that's gonna happen, or with the national debt that's gonna happen,

all of those things will be difficult as the costs of ordinary things will rise sharply, erasing the gains.

In the case of even more economic debt, we won't have ready funds to do the things we need to do to fix the disease, not the symptom.

Been asking around on this. The only people supporting it are conservatives looking for their share of the treasury, hoping they can sock some away for themselves and wait the problem out.

Sorry man, but for the majority of people, this is a bad idea.

And let's talk about WHO will pay 5x for a depression society! It won't be me! Won't be most of the people. The people closer to the top will pay huge.

Well, they earned huge screwing us over. Serves them right.

Me? I'll live lean, not take on ANY debt, and that includes national debt that won't do me any good. Then wait it out, then build when it's going again.

That's what most people are looking at Stoner.

Charging up more national debt, that could be spent building things to build the wealth that we are gonna need to cut risk (national health care), and provide better paying jobs isn't in our longer term interests.

Don't know about you, but the longer term is where I need the help. Seeing as how I just had to give up all that I built right now, teeing things up for building again is the right path.

You go find me somebody, who isn't one of the Reagan conservatives, who supports this boondoggle, and I'll listen. Otherwise, it's just a pipe dream that will pay off a few people, while fucking most of them over. Typical Republican shit. No thanks.

ITS NOT GOP OR DEM ...IT IS A PLAN TO ALLOW AMERICA TO SURVIVE THIS INCREDIBLE STORM. READ THE BOOK OBAMA IS CURRENTLY READING "FDR'S FIRST 100 DAYS" TO GIVE YOU A CLUE OF WHAT A DEPRESSION IS. IT IS NOT A RECESSION. IT IS LIFE AT IT'S WORST. THIS PLAN REVIVES THE ECONOMY, IT IS FAR FROM A HAND OUT.

Yeah ok.

The initial grassroots support is from Republicans, looking for a hand out. Lars Promoted it, and somebody somewhere is buying an ad in D.C. What I don't know are the names behind this thing and what their qualifications are.

Care to enlighten me? Who backs this, why, and how was it conceived?

Internet commentary on this, to date, exists in GOP circles, and with very few actual politicians posting up any position on it. A quick look through the Google hits, reveals a small campaign, spamming web sites with this thing, on topic or not.

Here it's on topic. Elsewhere, it's often not.

This is a classic hallmark of a few people trying to look just a bit bigger than they really are.

I know what a depression is. Not happy about it. Not sure we can avoid it.

Here's a question for you:

Why don't we let the NEXT PRESIDENT deal with this? The current President is the worst we've ever had. I'm sure if he likes this thing, it's the worst for us, just like every other thing he touched.

Of course, that means not charging up a ton of money right now, doesn't it?

If this thing actually had any serious merit, it would be easy to see who thinks what of it, why. That's not easy to see because it's new, small time, and not all that well supported.

ie: loser.

Why don't we let the NEXT PRESIDENT deal with this?

I agree.

Any plan hatched now and succeeds would be deemed a brilliant Bush move. If it fails, Obama would get all the blame even if he was nowhere in sight.

Since Bush has deemed it fit to go into "so what" mode, I say we just all stand by and watch Bush complete his personal destruction of the United States.

In January when Obama takes office, we can all pick up the pieces and begin to rebuild our country. But not one minute before. Who knows where Bush might take Air Force One again and stir things up and set things back even further.

you know what....YOUR RIGHT! I will buy you a bowl of soup.
* note- I voted for Obama and have high hopes for him...but as we all know, the govt is slow and it all takes months, sometimes years to get things actually DONE. We do not have the time this round.
This is my last email on the subject. The question I have for you who will not even open your eyes to a BOLD plan that will work right away....Have any of you ever created jobs and made a payroll?
I doubt it.

I've been with small firms most of my working life, and have been self-employed. I know what it means to make jobs (we hired two in a down economy and are trying to figure out how to get a third).

BTW: We don't create jobs. What we do is resell services at a profit. If that gig is stable, then that is a job for somebody. Always important to remember that.

When we spend ANY money, both personally and professionally, we look hard at that money and ask the very simple questions, "What is the return on it? What are the risks? How long?"

I did open my eyes to the plan. It just really sucks! Of course, I'm gonna say that, because that's just how I am.

The risk is very high, given the amount of new money printed, taxed away from people, or borrowed. The return isn't demonstrated either. Could be a ton of this money goes overseas. Finally, for a very large segment of the population, there is no obvious, quick return!

Got no response from Wyden either. If it were even close to being on his radar, I would have gotten an answer of sorts. Always do.

We didn't elect Obama only to hamstring him with an expensive financial commitment of this size. What's the point? Could have just put McCain in there, then continue draining our treasury and leveraging our assets unhindered.

We know that stuff doesn't work. As a nation, we've come to the acceptance that it doesn't work, so then continuing to do it is off the table.

That's how these things go.

These things combined are why I tagged it as some GOP thing. I should have been more clear, that the GOP does not yet have this on it's radar either. What I meant was the support I do see, who is lending it, and where I've seen it, suggests that we have a bunch of conservative people looking for the quick fix, when there isn't one.

And, with my eyes open, I have articulated in some detail the core problem with the thing. Asked for answers, major supporters, hell, even the core supporters.

Got nothing.

Asked around, considered the thing, and everybody I know says it's dumb to consider. That's co-workers, financial people, business owners, and others.

BOLD is not a selling point right now either. I think BOLD is good, but smart, rational, and disciplined is WAY better. With things so delicate, cowboy type moves don't excite me one bit.

And that's conservative, I know, but that's also how I tend to view things when risks are high.

It's gonna take a bit, and it's gonna hurt along the way. Don't like it any more than you do Stoner.

However, it is a clear object lesson that elections do absolutely matter.

The sad truth is there is only one President at a time. Bush is our guy, and he's lost the trust. Nobody is gonna move on something like this when the President Elect can't contribute to it yet.

Could hose up any chance we have of righting things, and we don't know that until we get the guy in there, let his thinkers think, and see what we get.

If you expect to garner grass roots support that matters, you have absolutely got to post up more than the warm fuzzy. That's all that can be found on the site, and that's not enough to even consider positive advocacy on, given the glaring problem of how to fund the thing.

Gotta have an answer for that, at a minimum.

I'm sorry. Really am. Truth is, I want some action too. It's tough to wait. When I hear something like this, my bull shit detector goes off BIG TIME. If it sounds too good to be true, then it's very highly likely to not be true.

This is one of those things, which is why I posted astonishment, outrage, and some pointed questions and observations.

Oh, and a truism for you:

THERE IS ALWAYS TIME TO DO IT RIGHT.

Think about that.

Part of scaling down means we make our own soup, BTW. (yeah, it could get that ugly, so we are making damn sure our family knows how to get all the stuff it needs to get done on as few dollars as is possible. Might come in handy.)

30 yr fixed rates are in the ballpark of 4.625%. This will spur refinancing and will also help motivate buyers. The bottom line is that there's a lot of people who took risks they couldn't afford to take, and the shit needs to run though the system. One man's loss is another man's gain. Give it time and it will all work out.

There are people that just had things happen too. That's me basically.

Truth is, the family that is getting the old house is getting a decent deal. They probably are on one of those low loans right now too. That makes a lot of sense.

We can save, build and ideally move to a lower risk time and all will be ok. If you don't have much, you don't worry about much.

I'm ok with that right now.

Vitalogy, I do worry about the systemic issues. The loan and investment derivatives scene is a mess. I'm sure regulation will address a lot of that, leaving just a painful revaluation of everything.

The bigger picture is wealth generation. I'm hoping to see good things from this administration, or we are in for a long, ugly cycle.

---and we don't HAVE to make our own soup. Right now, we just do. Soup is good, cheap, hot food. If you love soups, they are hard to beat for the dollar and the work. Big pots are not all that much work over smaller ones!